I think the real secret sauce was building a relationship by going to those support groups.If there's a support group in your area, whether it's through your agency or through your state or both, and I know you can say I don't have time, but it's the best use of time because if there's ever anything you do in your life that has to do that's all about relationships, this would be it.

It's the Foster to Fore podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt. I'm your host, Rachel Fulginetti. I am thrilled to welcome to the show today.Hilary Crowley. Hillary is a Foster to Adopt mom.She's a holistic practitioner at a family medical practice, an award winning author of a book on healing, and she recently presented a TEDx talk called you'd Fairy Tales are Hurting our Foster Kids. Hilary, welcome.

Thank you so much, Rachel. And thank you so much for this whole podcast.When I was going through this process, I was always looking for support and it's now is 11 years ago and I just, I was thinking about how while I'm listening to you and all the stories that you're sharing, how it's really like a support group you can take along with you. And I think if there's any, if there's any phase of your life where you need support, it's when you're in the foster process.So thank you for having me.

Isn't that true? Thank you. Thank you for saying that.That is absolutely was an intention of mine because when I was going through it, I really, I didn't feel, feel that at all. Like I didn't even know anyone else who was doing it at the time.And I had friends, but friends that, you know, they can be supportive to a point, but if you haven't experienced it, it's just, there's nothing quite like it. Did you have support within the community? Like did you know other people who were going through it when you were going through it?

Yeah, that's actually kind of a fun origin story for me. I, I'll just jump right in.So I was a mom, I gave birth to a child at age 35 and right soon afterwards I had that kind of, you know, warm, you know, love for being a mom and wanting more. I think that's a nice way of putting it, like just wanting to more.And I didn't sort of like naturally get pregnant with any kind of ease and I hadn't fully wrapped my head around what to do next.The clock was ticking as they say, and I was the class mom in first grade, so now my child's in first grade and I'm thinking about, boy, oh boy, you know, like, still thinking about this, this. Where is this other child? And my friend who is a. A mom who lives on a campus of a well known prep school.It's like a very storied prep school called Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hampshire.

Oh, sure. Yeah, I know that.

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's very storied. It's where the book, the separate piece was written.So she has like the ideal situation as a foster mom because you have security, you have housing, and you have three meals a day. It's like, not to mention she had biological children. And she showed up with a. A child on her hip. And I said, who is this, my friend?And she said, I'm a foster mom. And I said, oh, well, sure, if you want me to take her off your hands, I'd be more than happy.Like, ridiculous, funny conversation while we're, you know, serving chips to the kids kind of thing. Just a fun thing.But it turned into the most serious conversation of my life because she said, there's a real need for foster parents, and all you need to do is take these couple of steps and I'll be with you every step of the way. She said, my husband and I, we're very committed to this process. And no, you can't have her. She's mine. She's one of ours.So she was able to go from foster to adopt as well.And through that, that introduction, I immediately started to go to the support groups even before the parenting classes, even before anything, just showing. Yes, this was a big tip. And I give this to other people. Just they will welcome you into the support groups.And then you get to know the lingo, Rachel, like the link, you know, like the. You're feeling that.

Oh, my God. I mean, that's like a brilliant tip. This is season three and no one has said that yet. What a great piece of intel. Thank you.

So there's more to it.So not only do you know the lingo, but the resource and placement officers start to know you because they're on the front line, seeing the children that need placement, need homes, and they get to know my personality, my level of interest. They got to know some things that were, like, probably just meaningful for them, not necessarily helpful or not.Such as, I go to the support groups regularly and my husband stays home, so knows how many kids we have, all the things.

So let me ask you a question. About that. So was the support group. It was the agency the. Where you were going to get certified was giving it. Because I'm just thinking about.

It was sponsored by the state. My state. State of New Hampshire, in my case. So it would be straight to the state. The state resource workers would have a support group for this.The state here in New Hampshire. The state can do direct placements. And they do direct placements.

Yes. Okay. That is so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, so you. You started going to those support groups right away, before you did it?

Yes.

And then what. What did that. What did that give you?

Um, well, that certainly gave me language. It was important for me. I spoke up and I said, you. You guys are using a lot of shorthand, and I don't understand what you're talking about.And then from that, I started to understand the language. And because I understood the language, I had the roadmap. And then the next step on the roadmap, of course, is to take the parenting class.And for everybody listening, I don't even know what stage of parenting you're at, but I feel like we should all take parenting classes just for our own personal development. Like, I got to understand my own childhood development by taking a parenting class.

Like, yeah, that's a good point.

And there's no charge to it. And so what is it? About eight, eight weeks? You know, you dedicate yourself. You make sure you're available.Turn it into date night if you have a partner or you go get a lot of people going solo. Right. Because that's fine, too. It's good.

Sure.

And I think about three weeks into the parenting class, and for some reason, it also was like an executive function test for us as well, because it was always a different location on every week. I don't know if you.

Ours was in the same place, but that's funny.

Yeah. So I. I was like, fair. It's a fair test. Test my executive function. I got it. So we. We found our way.And I remember I was sitting in this particular room, and it was. A lot of people were in it in an old building.And I had that moment that I had gone down the wrong path, that this was too much, too far, but good for me. I raised my hand like a good student, and I commented, rather than quitting, and I said, I don't think I can do this.I'm listening to these conversations about reunification and having an extra sweatshirt available if the biological mom shows up and she doesn't have enough attire on the upper part of her body. You know, to support her, to make sure that she gets to have you don't turn her away.This sounds silly, but just imagine that somebody might show up in a bikini top, but they're going for a. And they're not going to pass state regulation.They're just talking about nice ways that we can support the biological mom and dad for the reunification process. And then there were details about, like if you feel like you're in danger. And so that's when my hackles started going up. And here's how you can de.Escalate the situation at your front door or at the meetup place and all that stuff. So my hackles are going up, my nerves are going up, my fears are being activated. And I raised my hand and I said, I am so sorry.I'm going to ask this question because I don't want to walk out. And I just, I'm sure other people are thinking it.I can't, I don't think I can do this because if anybody came to remove my child or put me in a situation of visitation of my child and put any restrictions on my child, my existing child, right now, you would have to put bars on the window. You. And I'm coming to get my child no matter what. And I don't want to be on the wrong side of that. Can you imagine that question?

That takes a lot of courage to, to raise your hand and say something like that in that venue.

Courage and impulsivity, right? I'm just in a very playful mood today because the other side of that was the most beautiful answer you could ever get.And it was so compassionate to the foster world as well as the biological parents. And she said, you are feeling all these feelings because you're in a healthy place right now. Hillary.

Nice.

She said, because you are healthy, you are able to connect your attachment already, even abstractly to the child we haven't even placed with you yet.The only reason that these connections would be broken would be with all compassion, it would be because maybe there's a substance misuse involved, there's a history of abuse in these parents lives and, or there's a resulting mental illness that needs more attention and care. And I sat back down and I was down for the ride because she said, your response is a healthy response.And my fear was subsided and I was able to put it back into my heart and move forward from there. And to be clear, my husband was sitting to the left of me and he wasn't going anywhere. He wasn't going anywhere.If I walked he would have walked with me, and if I stayed, he was going to stay with me. So it was really beautiful giving you.

Permission to be where you were and to normalize that and say, hey, this is a normal response. And I think that's so important to just highlight, because what we're doing, what we're asked to do as foster parents, is really, really difficult.It's just a difficult spot to be in. Obviously, for the biological parents, that's a whole nother story, a horrible situation for them to be in. But I just.I appreciate that, the being honest piece like that, you were able to just say where you were in the moment.And by raising your hand and saying that out loud, instead of waiting until you were in the car on the drive home or whatever, you gave everyone in that room the permission to feel their feelings as well and to think about that and also to get that beautiful response because, you know, they were probably all feeling the same thing, possibly.

And the social worker, it gave her a chance to shine because she was ready for it. She had such a beautiful answer.

Yeah, that's. That's really beautiful. I love that. So let's talk about you and your husband for a moment. Was your husband.You said that he would do whatever you wanted to. So were you essentially driving the ship? What was his take on the whole thing?

Well, his take on the whole thing goes back to before we even conceived the first child, which was. He's very content in his situation. Right. And I said. And I said, well, I'm.I'm just paying attention, that one of the biggest decisions, and I want your listeners to hear this. One of the biggest decisions, respectfully, that people make in their life is the decision to not have a child.I think it's brave, it's conscious, and. Sometimes that's a decision to not have a child.

Yes, absolutely.

And it's a big decision, and I have a lot of respect for that decision. So he was okay with that decision to not have a child.

Okay.

And then I just. I just thought it would be fun and interesting, and I was curious.

And.

Without a lot of effort, we stopped birth control. And I was able to be pregnant very easily. And I say that because that was the only time I easily got pregnant, and that was 34.So now he's in love with the babies. All in dad. Very present with the baby.

Okay. Yep.

And he's all in dad. You know, ride him in on the bike. And just a great, really just great dad. And so imagine a great dad. He's like, what do you mean you need another?We want another. We're going to do another, you know.

Right. Yes.

And so y. And I let him know, I said, this is just pulling on my heart every day. It's. It's something that you either.What is that expression, if you know, you know, it's like if you know, you know, you get that pull. I don't think he had the hankering or the pull for a second, but he saw that I did.

Yeah.

And for reasons that are actually not very complicated at all, I was comfortable. I think I was more comfortable with the idea of pursuing adoption than I was with pursuing fertility treatment. It was just. It was just very.It was just very. I mean, I work in healthcare.I know a lot of people who have had beautiful success and miracle stories with fertility, but it just did not interest me at all. I felt that pull, like you've talked about, of like, I sense there's somebody out there and I think I know where to find them.I don't know how, but I'll just keep following the breadcrumbs to do, to use a fairy tale metaphor.

And.

And then lo and behold, I. That just brings me to that, you know, beautiful moment at the.As a aspect a class mom in first grade and meeting this other woman and she invites me to the support group. That's. That's my story. And my. And of course, my husband wanted to be at the parenting classes. And that really does indoctrinate you.It gets you excited, it gets you. It's hard, but in a good way. It's kind of masterful what they do. And there's no way he would want to be involved without that.And then he got very involved when it came down to the placement and the fitness because our children are almost twins. They're only five months apart.

Okay. Wow. And that was intentional, not by me.

But the state was studying us. You know, they were studying.You know, they were literally studying me and studying how involved my husband was with his son and what he likes to do and what his interest was. And we had a nine year old.

So.

So my. My line is. I loved my. We loved our 9 year old so much that we decided to get another one.But from the state point of view, they had a child who was nine year old. Nine years old. And nine years old is the cutoff point to be placed in a home.I don't know if that's the case in other states, but 9 or 10 years old is the cutoff. And other than that, they go to a Group home or residency program, and they just.We were in the right place, literally in the right county, right time. We were a good fit, and we'd had a couple of placements offered to us, Rachel, but they were not good fits. You know how that goes.You get the phone call.

Yes, absolutely. And that's something worth mentioning as well for people who don't know my story. I said no five times before I said yes.And there's personal reasons for that that I don't want to go into right now, but just the. Just to let the listeners know that, like, you don't have to automatically say yes to the first placement. It has to be right for you and your family.

And can I add to that?

Yeah, please do.

There's actually, like, a beautiful community around that because we have the heart of a mother, and so we can feel, rather than saying this child isn't right for us at the time, we listen to our heart. I know you speak about that.I'm not sure that in the spirit of the beautiful work that we're doing, we're not actually connecting with that baby for a moment and saying, no, I can feel there's a better place for you.

Yes, 100%. I'm so glad you mentioned that.And of course you did, because of the other work that you do, which is something I want to get into a little bit later. But, yes, that decision that I made wasn't made from, like, a. It doesn't fit on paper. It was like, no, I. It's not. It's not the right match.

I had an interesting case of one of the phone calls I got, and I felt like I was literally just part of the team because I got a phone call, and I'm just gonna keep it really neutral to keep it as confidential as possible.But I got a phone call, and there was a child under the age of 6 years old who had been brought up in a home, but it wasn't a foster home, but it wasn't a biological home either.The family went to court and said, we need to actually bring this child into the system because it's time for the child to go to school, and we want to officially become their parents. And they brought that right to family court or whatever court it is. And the particular judge said, this entire situation is illegal.We're calling DCYF and we're removing the child immediately, and we're placing the child in a legal foster home. And then I was. My husband and I were the ones that got the phone call on that.

Oh, wow.

And so I was able to receive all that history. And there was definitely a part of me that's like, really? Oh, good. You know, like, I don't know.

Right.

I mean, every child out there, anyone who's listening, who's ever been through the foster system, just know that there's a bunch of us are like, sure, I will love you forever and whatever you need. But in the second beat of that was whatever you need. That seemed like a huge disruption that I didn't want to participate in.A bureaucratic disruption. And I got to be a helper because I said, I told them why. I said, no.I said, this sounds more traumatic for the child to be removed unless you know better, because they will know better. And I said that wasn't that hard to get the foster certificate. I mean, to be fair, it was like a few classes and a blah, blah, blah.Like, can you put the child, the. That family on the foster track?

Yes.

She called me back about two weeks later and she said that was great advice. And it didn't cross my mind because they're busy, the social workers are busy.

Yes.

And she said, I got the state to just issue them a certificate. We did a home study, they passed and everything was back to normal. So no can be the best that you can say for a child.

Yes. That's really, really beautiful. Again, having the. Whatever it is to speak up. You know, you could have just said no and left it at that.But speaking up, you were a helper in that situation and that was, That's a beautiful thing. It's like just being present and being able to be connected and just speak up is like really important sometimes. A lot of times.

I love that. That's a really good observation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I guess that's a pattern with me.

So let me ask you this. Did you discuss this with your 9 year old son before it happened and during it? And what was that like for him?Was he excited, interested, freaked out? Like, how did he feel about it, your biological son?

He was excited, interested. He knew enough. Similar to if you would tell a child that you're pregnant. I guess I never had that situation.But similar as you would tell a child you're pregnant, like, you can't control this outcome. But I just want to let you know we're right. We're kind of pregnant with a nine year old right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Another nine year old. And so he had, he had fair warning. He knew what his name was, which was kind of fun. And. And then we got placement of Him.So now we had two boys in the house. And I think the best way to answer your question, Rachel, is to tell you what happened at support group a week after our child was placed with us.So I walked in, and they said, how's it going? And I said, it's very, very chaotic. I've never seen him this angry. There's a lot of your biological son angry. But they thought I was talking.They thought I was.

Okay. Sorry, I'm ruining the story. Go ahead.

I think that's fair to the listeners, too. So I walked in, and they're asking me about their kid. Our kid. The kid.

Yes. Gotcha.

And I'm like, he's. I've never seen him this angry. He. He. He's having trouble sleeping. I can't get him to go to school.And they're like, well, how's your biological son doing? I'm like, that is my biological son. So it was really disruptive for him. And I probably would have done it better another time.But in the same respect, I wouldn't change a thing, because it was pointed out to me that. That disruption and that heartbreak opening. Yes, sure, live and learn.But it was very, very good for his development, and his compassion was opening wide open, and he was an only child at the time, and so he was learning how to share. And now that I. Now that they're both adults with really good hearts.I wouldn't say to foster because you want to give your child good, you know, compassionate development or the rest of your family, but it does come as a side benefit, which is you learn an awful lot, and you become very savvy to the needs of others.

Did they share a room initially, or were they in separate rooms?

They were in separate rooms. And that was a good thing.

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. How long did it take for your biological son to sort of be able to metabolize the situation and get back to some kind of normal.For lack of a better terminology.

No, I think normal is a good word because it will never be.Like, I've talked to parents, because I was commiserating with parents, and they were like, you know, my son's never forgiven me for giving birth to his little brother. You know, I mean, so there's. I mean, I'm one of four. Like, I'm sure my older sister is like, I'm still trying to figure out where you.The rest of you came from. You know. So there's that sibling piece. But I think that it was incremental.There was incrementals and Every incremental is when there was a disruption in the routine, and that created connection and togetherness that we. If you. If he came to us in the summer where he was placed as a foster child, that winter, that February up here in New England was brutal.And I think we had, like, three weeks off, and there was just a lot of fun with that and that I could feel the bonding. Things were pretty solid. But, you know, at nine turns into 10, and 10 turns into 11, and 11 turns into 12.We're in middle school, so I only had, like, a moment before middle school, which was super duper hard. Friend groups weren't the same. Responses to stimuli. Responses to puberty weren't the same. And then we got. We got the pandemic.

Yeah.

Happened freshman year for these kids, and that was not good in many, many ways, but it was very, very valuable for the attachment process because we got to bring everybody back home. And that's when I felt like they're solid. I don't see them being best friends yet, but I wouldn't wish that for them.And I've seen them have each other's back, and they both have excellent hearts, like, really good hearts, and they would agree with that on about each other as well. So as a mom, what more can I ask for?

Yeah, absolutely. That's wonderful.

So the answer is it took about three months, three years, and 11 years, and it's still going. But it's. It's a journey. It's a journey.

It's a good answer. Yeah, it is a good answer. What were some of the behaviors that you were dealing with with your foster son at the beginning? What was it like for him?

Well, when I say I got him at nine, it means he was. He didn't have stability until he was nine. And so it's a shock to come into a family with routine and holidays and expectations.I was the very first person he ever called mom. And the social workers will tell you that when your child has been put under that much trauma and separation, you can cut their age in half.So he was nine going on 45 years old, but also going on six years old.

Yeah.

And I say that again with a very, very protective heart as a mom, because I saw his soul, and he. He. He's such a. Oh, my goodness. But his body was doing a great job. Not going to miss any stages of development now that he had time to relax.The biggest. Feature of his behavior that I have yet to meet anybody to have experienced this is what is called the shutdowns.I Don't know if you have anyone in your audience who has experienced the shutdowns. It's a also called rock brain. And what happens is that the child with very little stimuli will go into a place where they become non responsive.Did you have other guests on your show talk about that?

It's funny. No, I've never had anyone talk about that so far. However, I have seen glimpses of that with my daughter, who is autistic and adhd.And she will go into a place sometimes where it's just. There's too much and she just shuts down like that. And so I think I have a sense of what you're talking about, but I'm interested. Please continue.

Well, I was frustrated because even the social workers just saw it as like a hypothetical or like an expression.

But it's.

You're actually with a child that you cannot move, you cannot get a response from. And their eyes are open, but they're like really, really, really checked out. And of course, nobody likes to be scared by a child.Like, there's a reason why some of the horror movies are like the scary child. Right? Because it's one thing to have an adult that's scary, but when a child is just like not there, that's.We have like a primal, a primal response to that. That was. We had to find our own therapy for that.Meaning, like our, our home had to just be like a therapeutic home for that to continue to create a safe space and also not. Adapt to the shutdown, which could have been controversial. Rachel. I don't even know. But I wasn't going to adapt to it. One of my. Moments.And this is all in the first year and was really acute in the first year. And then everything does normalize. But I was able to figure out what the trigger is. And I don't use that lately.You know how we can say, oh, this is triggering? No.

Yes.

It's actual trigger.

Yep.

The very first trigger was walking into a restaurant and he had too many choices on the board in front of him. So it could have been like too much joy, too much stimulation, too much safety. And he shut down. And my husband was there. I was.I heard about it secondhand. My husband was there. And he. My husband reported embarrassment, confusion on the part of the adult.

Sure.

He's like, what do I do with him? You know, he's not behaving in public.

Right. And.

And I can't cue him to like, let's just leave or just order something. So that was. There's nothing you can do about that for us. We didn't know what to do.

So he would just be legitimately like he's just frozen. And he.

Frozen.

Do anything.

He can't do anything.

Can't.

Can't do anything.And the only thing that needed to change, and I'm speaking for myself, not for my husband, because I think my husband was more like curious, embarrassed. I would get infuriated because it was scary, scared. I wasn't that sophisticated. So scared, not safe, angry. All were in the same pocket. Right.I had so much to learn. I had so much to learn. And it wasn't long until he had a shutdown. When it was time to go. This is around meal time, by the way.It was time for us to go to a friend's house for dinner. I didn't think it through because he was local. And in order to get to the friend's house for dinner, which was happy, happy for me. Oh, good.I get to be with other kids. We get to be with our friends. This is going to be a lovely evening. I don't have to cook the whole thing.

Right. Gotcha.

Yeah. He wasn't, he wasn't. He wasn't leaving his room. He was in a full shutdown in his room. And I.And the words my husband said were, why don't you stay here or I'll stay here and you go to the dinner party with our other son. And I was like, I felt that splitting of our family. And even though it was a very superficial example, I was like, no way. Not doing this.So I went up and I just sat with him and I kind of wrapped myself around him. Keep in mind, he's 9 and I'm 5 foot 4, so he's probably 4 foot 9, 4 foot 10. Like, I don't have a baby that I can just grab or toddler. I like.Even though there's parts, or even a five year old, I couldn't. So I just kind of wrapped my, my, myself around him, which was one part comforting, but another part like alpha mama kind of thing.And I said, I know you're angry right now and he's kind of pushing me off. And I said, but my love is bigger than your anger.And I said, and I was probably talking to myself too, so that the two of us could kind of bond a little bit and be like, let's make love bigger than our anger. And somehow miraculously, he clicked out of it. And he got into the car and I got into the front seat right where mom's supposed to sit.We Turned on music, and I turned to the whole family. I said, I'm never gonna do that again. I promise I'm never gonna do that again. That was. That was a lot because it was like.It was like, really, Mama bear hug. But we never had to do it again.The next time the shutdowns came in, I could just be like, I know you're going through something, but remember, my love is bigger than your anger. We're going to get through this. And then slowly, slowly, they. They faded away. And I'm.I'm saying that with a little lilt in my voice because I'm remembering a really good tip I got, which was, hey, Hillary, we're sorry you don't like the shutdowns. We're not there all the time for you, but you need to parent as if these shutdowns are never going to go away.So you have to accept the child for what they have and how they're going to show up for the rest of their life like this. And those two kind of competing thoughts merged into being a very healing message, which is, behave as if this might be the way it is.And also I was very hopeful that some of this was fear that would leave as he felt more and more safe. Fortunately, I was correct. But I really thought that that was so professional and such sound advice to say, don't try to change and don't try to fix.So I. I did that balance beam walk along the way.

Was that your support group that gave you that advice? Who gave you that advice? You're.

You're right. You're right on the money. Because the head of the support group was the social worker who was also the resource worker.So, yes, she'd be at support group. She ran the show, and it was such a good, beautiful community, but she would also be the one who would take the phone call. So, yeah, yeah.And like a really nice little community up here. So I have a feeling she said it to me in support group.

Just as a sidebar.I love hearing that you had such a wonderful relationship with the people at the county, because I find that oftentimes I hear a lot of struggles with the county. And, you know, everyone's always go through an agency, go through an agency, don't.And even I've said that you get more support, more help if you go through an agency than if you go directly through the county.So I think it's fantastic that they had these resources for you and that they were right there for you and the continuity of the same person who would take the phone calls, is actually the one running the support group. So she knew you already. And. And that's. That's awesome.

Yeah. I mean, I think you got to give everybody a chance. I think that the secret sauce in this particular case was a very, very good sense of humor.She had an incredibly good sense of humor. She was a foster mom herself. I had a couple of other. And there's a huge turnover. Right. So you don't know who you're going to get.But I. I think the real secret sauce was building a relationship by going to those support groups. If there's a support group in your area, whether it's through your agency or through your state or both.And I know you can say, I don't have time, but it's the best use of time, because if there's ever anything you do in your life that has to do that's all about relationships, this would be it.

Yeah.

So I'm sure they're controversial to other people, but I was all about relationships, and as time goes on, I speak more and more highly of them because to go back, I didn't love that she said, just accept that he's going to be this way. I didn't love that at all.

Right. Yep.

You know, But I don't know. I like to learn, so I was like, she was a good teacher. That, like, ouch. And, yeah, that's interesting. At the same time, you know, good for you.You're like. You're speaking truth to me. I like. I like it when people speak truth.

Yes. You know, you mentioned something about you didn't want to adapt to that behavior. What did you mean by that? Am I using that correctly?Is that what you said?

I think so. I mean, first of all, this is a great interview because I'm getting to talk about things I didn't get to talk about at the time. Right. So.

Yes.

So, yeah, I didn't want. My scared, angry child to, like, have a mother who was responding to tiptoeing around him to make sure he's not scared and angry.There could be some other special needs going on. But anger, last I checked, might be a side effect of a special need.But I don't think I need to adapt to that until we figure out where this anger is coming from. And I think the anger truly had to do with just the adjustment, the attachment, the trust, the lack that, you know, the. The abandonment issues.So tiptoeing and not treating him like he's my son, I think is another form of abandonment. So I was like, buddy, nice to meet you. I'm your mom. Let's go. And. And we still had to do the whole parental rights. We.I don't know if I was his forever, forever mom.

Right.

But. But I was his mom in that moment, and I wanted him to know what that felt like.

How long did it take for you to adopt New Hampshire?

I don't know what the. I don't know what the, the system does right now, but New Hampshire only gives the biological family one year to reunify.

Wow.

One year. Once the process starts, even if the.

Parental rights have not been terminated or you're just saying they. They one year.

Yes.

Okay.

Either reunify or they terminate. And I'm no lawyer, I'm no specialist in this, but the one year is noteworthy because I believe Massachusetts is five years.

Right.

South of us. Massachusetts is five years. And I can only imagine what a different dance that is.

Yeah. I mean, we were in California and I didn't even. That wasn't even like a thing. There was no time limit.

Yeah.

Like, that I was aware of, like, until the court finds that this isn't happening.

Yeah.

You know, and I want to be.

Really careful because I don't want to, like, cheerlead the fact that it's only a year.

Right. Because that actually seems to me kind of like, wow, that's not really, like a long time. I wonder if it's still like that.

I don't know.But it was, you know, it was great for our particular family because both of the biological parents were in the process of terminating their rights before he came to us. So I guess by great, I mean, like, both of the biological parents were happy that they had found a home for him.And I know happy is a, is a strong word, but it did seem like they were satisfied that they felt like they had some sovereignty or regency. Is that the word? Over the decision making process. And I was happy that they were happy.I also had this incredible experience having adopted or taken custody of an older child. So you would think that once you get custody of a child that everything I said, I'm all in.I'm mom, dad's dad, you're part of our family, and so forth. I found this incredible. I observed this incredible thing that happens. So you get a whole child. They're way over five years old. Okay, five years old.Is that, you know, whenever. When a lot of development happens, like, he's way past that. He's nine years old. He's got a beautiful heart.He's been Through a lot, and he deserves to feel safe. So I'm happy to provide him safety. But I noticed that I wasn't like, bonding onto him in the.You know, like, the first three days was safety, and then on the fourth day. And I call this. I've never shared this before, but I call this kind of like, almost like the universal taboo, which is a strange.And if you don't know what it is, you might even feel like you have an inversion to the child. But I think it's a universal taboo against kidnapping a child. I know that sounds so weird and. But this is the space to say this stuff, right?So it was like on the fourth or fifth day, I felt this sense of, like, where are your parents? Where are the people that brought you into this world? Are you missing them?Because I care about you so much in these first three days that I would do anything to get you back to them if it's safe. And then you get this information dance that comes in. It's like, it's not safe. It's confusing.Kind of going back to what the woman had said to me in that when I raised my hand, like, well, you know, they're going through their own stuff, so I wasn't giving him back. In a sense, this was all going on between my head and my heart. And so. And so once I got over that hurdle, I was like, that's interesting.That was like a human response, like a very human response to being like, this might be why we don't. Healthy people don't kidnap children. Because you're like, you belong someplace else. And then you get over that hurdle because it's an adult.You're not an adult job, but a growing child. You get over that hurdle, and then you're like, oh, you need me. Because. You don't have anybody claiming you, and you don't have anybody to run to.So game on, buddy. Let's do family. Let's do family. Really, really well. So that's how it all began after that. Once you get over that hurdle and.

You start bonding. And did you keep in touch with, like, were there visitations and all of that kind of thing?Did you develop a relationship with his biological parents?

His relationship with his biological mom is just beginning right now. She knew how to reach me.And I actually say this with love, and I always tear up a little bit that whatever she was going through, she knew where he was, and she never disrupted or interrupted or reached out. I don't know why, but I felt respectfully the same way. Like, we Just.We just knew we had this window of time, this decade, until he was going to be 18. So he's well past 18, and around age 18, he was able to reach out and find her.They've met, and they have what I think is just like a lovely kind of relationship that's going to move into an adult relationship. So I wouldn't even recognize mom if. If we passed each other on the street. We've never met. Isn't that interesting.The story of biological dad, which was the one who was local, the father who was local, who took custody of him when he was taken away from his mom at age 3. That dad had a very tumultuous relationship with his family that led to the removal of the child into state custody.

Okay.

And that dance went on. I. I don't want to overstate or understate, but let's just say it was about five years for the child.Did not know where the child was going to be living or staying.

Sure. Yeah.

Our son now.

Yes.

Then he signed over parental rights, and I remember that he was kind, and we did some. We did some visitation and so forth, but he was kind of unreliable in the parental rights. But I never thought it was.I can't even think of the word for it, but it's. It didn't ever feel like he meant to do harm. He's also our age, so it wasn't like it was a young kid. It was somebody who was the same age as we were.We were older parents, so he was an older parent as well.And I speak in the past tense because what happened was a year after we officially adopted our son, exactly a year after this gentleman, the biological dad won a scratch ticket and he won $4 million. What plot twist.

That is nuts. How did you even know that? Like, how did you know that?

Because first of all, it's public information, and secondly, his. A family member, a family member from the biological side called to let. To let me know because it was just such juicy information, you know, that is.

Wow.

Yeah. So similar to what I just talked about in terms of those first three days.My first 30 seconds were, oh, oh, is he going to come and take my child away? Now he has $4 million. And then the second part of it was, oh, my goodness, I'm happy for him. I hope he finds peace and stability.And the story ends like a lot of stories end, with people who win the lottery. Suddenly. He moved away. He. I think he got into money problems. He had health problems.And we got a phone call from a Detective about four years later, and he had died of natural causes. So that was. That was the story of the biological parents. So one relationship is just beginning with a mom, and one is in spirit.And I think they actually have a nice little relationship, however you want to understand that. But my son believes that he can communicate and does seem to communicate with his dad through their hearts and their connections.

I love that. And that's a great segue to me, asking you about your podcast and what you do outside of fostering.I'm interested in the connection there and if there was a connection between that and fostering for you, fostering to adopt. So tell the listeners what your podcast is and just give us a little bit of background info about that.

Fantastic. Thank you. Let's see if we can segue this, because it feels like two different worlds, but it's not at all.So my podcast is called the Good Energy Healing show, and my book that I published in 2021, it's distributed through Simon and Schuster, is called the Power of Energy Medicine. I'm an energy healer. And by being an energy healer, I've gotten really good at communicating with energy.And one of the ways that we communicate with energy and the language of energy is intuition. And I believe we're all very intuitive. I happen to be from a lineage of doctors and nurses, and my grandmother was a doctor.And I never had any interest or, you know, maybe academic abilities to go on to medical school. But I did find myself in my late 20s and early 30s having what might be like a gift of being able to.You know, read people's energy fields the way I think a lot of health care providers do. It's. It's a. It's compassion. I know some people do it more in the spiritual development realm, but I like to work in healthcare.So doctors, nurses, and surgeons send people to me when they're kind of mystified. It all comes back to the body is always communicating, and the body is always healing. And our whole life, I believe, is a healing journey.Like, you can't miss it. You can't miss the healing journey. And so I, to. To put this in a nutshell, first of all, I followed my intuition to get to the. Yes.You know, the intuition felt a heck of a lot like a biological pull to be a parent. And I don't mean to become a biological parent, but it felt like it was a full cellular poll, like, I'm not going to rest until I find this child.And when I did find the child, we met in a playground behind the elementary school, you know, with the sedan, you know, the red sedan and the. The social worker, like watching on. I remember my whole nervous system just calm, calmed down, which was the equivalent of a intuitive yes.We all know what an intuitive yes feels like.

I'm not sure everyone does, to be honest. I'm not sure they do. Can you just tell. Tell us that real. I mean, you just did.

Yeah.

So for you, do you think it's the same for everyone? For you, it's that your whole nervous system relaxes. Do you think that's the same universally?

Well, it feels like. It definitely feels like a. I like to describe intuition. Feels like your version of like, aha. Aha. Like aha. And it feels like I.It feels like the energy of. Of like aha. Yes. And it also feels like a remembering, but it's not a thought. So it's like you're remembering something that hasn't happened yet.And it's like, oh, you know that feeling.We're like, oh, I remember where I put my keys, or I remember where my favorite hat is, or I remember I left my sweater at my friend's house and now it's cold. I'm going to go over. I remember.So imagine it's not a material thing and it's this energy of remembering, and that's how homegrown and in the body it feels. So. But the. The language that I use for intuition is that it always feels like an aha. It feels like a lovely aha.

Okay.

If you feel like a fear or rejection or a tightening up of your body, like an angst, that could be instinct, which is great. Love instinct. Our but. We're here because our ancestors had good instincts and we have good instincts. But the. But the.But look for the gentleness and the sweetness, and that's where you'll start to feel the intuition. And I was the other. When I first got custody of our son, I was very angsty.I got really tight and, you know, and by learning how to do this differently, I became a better practitioner as well. Much better. A better citizen, a better practitioner, and definitely a better helper to the people who needed help from me. That makes sense at all?

Yeah, no, it absolutely does. It was a big, huge part of my journey.And I think that sometimes people, either they discount it or they're just not aware that it's a tool that you can use to. Be in alignment with what is like your highest good or something. I don't know how else to put it.Like, you know, it's not necessarily just because you want this thing. It's like, is this thing like, okay, I'm feeling like a want or a desire?Is this in alignment with, like, my highest expression, the highest expression of all involved? And, you know, and so I think on relating it to the foster to adopt journey is that that was really my.Guiding thought the whole time, was like, please, a. Please let the child that's meant to be in our forever family, like, be delivered to us.

Yes.

You know, I believe that there was.I felt through my intuition like you're talking about that there was a child out there that belonged in our family, that that was meant to be in our family. And I got confirmation of that in certain ways that I won't go into right now. But, yeah, I think it's that.And then it was like, throughout the whole journey, it was like, you know, I'm wishing for the best for this child, this child's journey and what that means, if that means being with us, if that means being reunified, I just want the highest and best for everybody involved. And that's what I had to hold onto, you know, and there were signs along the way that made it feel like I feel like we're on the right path.But it's interesting how oftentimes your emotions or your fears can come in and sort of cloud that. And how do you know the difference between this is just my. My mental monkey mind going crazy and whoa, there's actually. This is not in alignment.I'm going to throw that to you. How do you know there's a rule.

Of three, meaning that you'll get the message, but you'll get it two more times because you're going to have your monkey mind, you have your fear. You'll also have outside people saying things that will throw you off, and the synchronicities and intuition persist.And if you look back at your journey, you'll, You'll. And anytime that you followed your intuition, you'll see that you had more than one clue. And so if you want to be.Proactive about it, you just want to say, okay, I'm noticing. I'm noticing that this sounds to me could be true, or my fear is kicking in because can I really do this? And.And then just look for evidence of 1, 2, 3, stay curious about it, and you'll see another evidence. And it could happen quickly, but just keep track. And then. And then you're in communication with this spiritual wisdom that surrounds all of us.I've heard you talk about the ancestors, and, yeah, I mean, and if we're in this place where like, this seems really far out and like, well, life, kids, that's as far out as it gets. People, we can't even wrap our head around it. Birth, adoption, right. Connection, coincidences.And how we can love our way through all of this is a noble, a noble thing to be curious about. It is the reason that we remain curious. It's just like, how are we going to love our way through this life?And if there's anything to be intuitive about, it would be who and how am I going to, you know, love in this world? And that's. Do you know, I, I mentioned this in the TEDx talk.Did you know that the etymology of foster is to foster means to encourage, to nourish and to support. Like that applies to life.

Yes. Yes.

And how lucky are we that we get to actually foster a child who comes to us through fostering? Yeah, like, it's not subtle. This, this, this calling. So as I say, the rule of three. It will be at least three.But, you know, give yourself more than just one shot to get it right. You'll, you'll, you'll notice that the name will be something special, you know, as, as you, you tell them story. Powerful.And then in my case, I'm pretty sure I'm related to the, the child. Like, I'm finding out through historical documents that like, we have the same great, great, great, great, great aunt or something like it.

Oh, my God, that's nuts too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have friends, you know, I have friends, of course, because I'm in the business.I have friends who are psychic and channel and way past, way before I even knew I was going to adopt, one of my friends said to me, she was in my house, she said, I can feel that there's a child. And she named his name, which is William, because I can say, because I say his name on the TEDx as public as it gets. She said, I can.I feel there's a William around. There's a William around. And I, and I thought, I was like, listen, I don't believe in ghosts.Don't tell me that there's some ghost that lives in my house. That's how innocent I was. That's how I did not impose any meaning to it.And then two years later, I sit up in the middle of the night because my child goes by on all paperwork. He goes by Billy, okay? And he's coming, he's coming to our house.And I think maybe it was one of his first or Second nights there, I sat up in the middle of the night. I was like, oh, my gosh, that's the William. That's the William. So love it.You know, enjoy the ride because it's beautiful and it's so challenging, but we're meant to do hard things when it comes to loving children. We are.

We are. Beautiful, beautiful words. To end with.Give us again the name of your podcast and where people can find you and listen to you and read your book and all that good stuff and your TEDX Talk.

I really want to give everybody the name of the TEDx talk because of your.

Please do.

Because of your audience. My. My podcast. You'll find me. It's Hilary Crowley. Good energy, healing. But what needs to be heard is the TEDx talk that they titled.They listened to my whole talk and they gave a very provocative title, which is your Fairy Tales are Hurting Our Foster Children. The Unexpected Journey of a Foster Mom.And it turns out that the TEDx audience in general is not as driven through the social work and the children's, you know, children's welfare community. And so anybody who's listening, you'd be doing a great service to the.The algorithm that needs to get a lot louder out there, which is to raise the awareness for children.And that one of the big points that I make in the TEDx talk is that the children, when they're coming through 8, 9, and 10 years old, they haven't found a home yet.So if anybody is listening to this or you want to share this with any of your friends who are listening to this, just know that there's a beautiful, beautiful journey to be taken.If you're thinking of adopting a child, an older child, and by older, I mean 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and the teenagers, because there's so much to learn and so much beauty, I don't do a heavy pitch for that. I just tell a story, and that's on TedX. TedX. Hillary Crowley, you'll find me under the foster in the foster community.And I'm@hillary crowley.com and I just can't thank you enough for being like my support group and listening to this podcast. And I'm glad to contribute to all the sharing that you're doing out there for us.

Well, I am so happy to have you. I think you've really given us some great things to take away today.It's wonderful to be with you, and I hope you'll stay in touch and maybe come on the show again sometime.

I'd be honored. Thank you so much.

This has been the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt. Produced by Aquarius Rising. Original music composed by Joe Fulginiti.For more information or to stay in touch, visit fromfoster2forever.com that's from foster the number two forever. And stay connected with us on Instagram @Foster2Foreverpodcast . That's Foster, the Number two Forever Podcast. We'll see you next time.