EMDR and Play Therapy with Trauma Expert Jenny Hornby

It's almost like we don't recognize our own superpower as parents, you know, our foster parents or whatever. Like our presence is the power, you know, it's not having all the answers and having it all figured out.It's just that our kids don't, don't have to be alone in whatever it is.

It's the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt. I'm your host, Rachel Fulginiti.

I am happy to welcome to the show Jenny Hornby. Jenny is a licensed counselor and trauma expert. Welcome, Jenny.

Oh, thank you so much, Rachel.

I'm so happy to have you here today.As you know, many, many, I would actually say, like all of the children that are coming from foster care are going to have trauma in some state or form. So, yeah, that's one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to have you on was to talk about your therapy, what you do.Can you give us a little bit of background about that?

Yeah, so I'm trained in emdr, which is eye movement desensitization, reprocessing. It's a very long, complicated name, but it's actually very simple.

So.

So the idea is you're making sure that the child has enough resources so that they're able to kind of think about this hard thing that happened, but they can stay present, stay engaged, not get flooded or shut down. That they have some coping skills available before they kind of revisit some of these painful places.And the nice thing with emdr, they're not reliving the trauma. The story is just being kind of witnessed and noticed. It's not like they're back in it, they're kind of watching it.So I describe it with kids like we're on a train and we're moving on the track and we're looking out the window and we're watching the scene and we're just seeing what we notice out the window kind of thing. So there's a sense of, I'm not in that story. I'm watching it. I'm safe where I am. I have, you know, someone with me this time. I'm not alone.And so then as they kind of watch the story, that's where the desensitizing comes in. You know, if it's very upsetting, we kind of keep watching the story until it is a lot less upsetting when it starts to come down.And then once it comes down, we can install something more helpful for them.So if they came to believe, you know, I'm not Safe or I'm all alone and we can install now I'm safe now I'm not alone anymore I have what I need now and so it's really neat because our brains are, you know, flexible. So these beliefs that are in there aren't fixed.You know, we can go in and we can bring support and bring something that's going to support them better going forward. And so it's really neat to watch in kids. It's so cool because their minds really are so much more flexible than the adults are.So it's pretty amazing to watch how they can visit and go there and they're like, okay, you know, there's this shift that happens inside of them. And so we can do that through different things. We can write a story about what happened.I have something called sand tray where they can create it and it's like a tabletop sand tray with like miniature toys. So they can create it in the sand tray. They can look at a photo, they can, you know, just think about it in their mind.And we add to that bilateral stimulation. So you'll see like the eye movement, which is where the EMDR name came from, or they can do tapping or stomping or hold a buzzy.And so that kind of comes from the idea of REM sleep where when we're sleeping and our eyes are going back and forth while we're sleeping, that we're processing our day, we're processing whatever happened. And they've learned that if we can do the bilateral, we're getting our whole mind on board to kind of digest the situation so it's not stuck.Like someone described trauma to me as like when you're eating and you're supposed to just swallow and it gets digested. Sometimes trauma gets stuck like a piece of food and it's somewhere it's not supposed to be, right?It's in our, like the front where we're feeling like we're still in the situation and we're wanting it to get digested and processed so it can be in the back. Like that did happen, but it's over now. You know, it's a long term memory. And so the bilateral really helps kind of move it through.You know, I can notice it, I can watch it, it's over, you know, all that kind of good stuff. So it's a really beautiful intervention. It's amazing. I love doing it with kids and I've just seen it be so effective. Really, really powerful tool.

Would you say that they're, are they in a state of Hypnosis or is it not really hypnosis?

No, it's not. People have. People have asked that question, and maybe people would fall on different sides there. But no, you're in.You're able to know where you are, and you're aware.Like, they can hear me talking, but they are also visiting the old story in the old pictures, you know, so it is kind of a deeper level of conscious state. But I don't. I wouldn't describe it as being hypnotized.

Right.

You know.

Yep. It's like a state of deep relaxation or almost like meditation or something.

Yes. Right. You're observing the thing. Right. And just got it. Able to watch it.So it's really neat, and it's given me a lot of hope because I would say before getting the EMDR training, I did a lot of play therapy, and that was really helpful. But the EMDR piece for the trauma is just. That's been a game changer for families. Yeah, it's really good question.

Does it need to be a specific incident? Okay. Or, you know, some. So many of these children have just experienced so much trauma that how do they even decide what to do?

Where. Where to go? Yeah, that's a great question. So you can do it so many different ways. You know, you can take. You can use EMDR on an emotion.You know, like, some of these kids are having a lot of anger. So you can do an EMDR on just feeling anger and what's happening, what do you notice?And, like, bringing that desensitization down where, okay, I can notice. I'm angry and things aren't out of control, and I'm not in danger, you know? So you can target an emotion. You can target a specific memory.You can target just a body sensation. Maybe I don't know what happened because I was so young, but I get, like, an upset stomach or I get a headache. Okay, let's.We'll use that as our target. Notice that? Focus on that, and let's tap through that and see what your body's holding there. Um, so it's.It's really neat because their body knows what to do, and we're kind of just. People describe it as being like a Sherpa.Like, we know the trail, we know the path, and we're just kind of walking them through it, and they're doing the work. You know, we're really witnessing the story with them, which is so cool. And art can be really helpful.You can have them draw, like, a shape or a color, Whatever's kind of Coming up for them. And then the bilateral might be. Let's scribble over it. Just go back and forth just thinking about that story. Yeah.So art or painting or anything like that can, can bring that bilateral kind of movement through the memory or the distress.

Yeah.

It's so fun with kids. Yeah.

What are the ages that will work? Like, what is the youngest that you could work with someone in this capacity?

For me, my youngest has been about four. I know there's people trained that can work with younger. I'm just, I don't have that level or expertise.

Yeah.

So it's something maybe to be curious about when you're looking for somebody is what's the age? But typically it's very adaptive, you know.

Sure. And I'm assuming it needs to be done in person. It's not something that you can do online or can you do it online?

Yeah, you can, you can do it online. We have apps and different things that will have like a ball that they can watch back and forth if they're going to do eye movement.

Okay.

And that tapping is really easy, you know, to do online. So, yeah, we can do it online.I like, with a kid, you know, I like to make sure there's somebody with them, you know, to be kind of a calming presence in the room. But I mean, sure. In person to me, is the. Is preferred.

Now what about trauma in the womb or like pre birth trauma? Does it work for that kind of thing as well?

Yes, it does. Yes, it does. It's so amazing. So there's emdr. There's different, like levels of emdr.So you can do EMDR where it's very specific and focused on like one memory or one thing. But then EMDR standard is we're going to kind of go wherever that belief is in your body. So. So say the belief is I'm a failure.So we might pick a memory of, you know, struggling in school and having a hard time at school and you're feeling like you're a failure. If we do EMDR standard, we can visit anywhere where that belief came to be.

Okay.

And so that can go all the way back to. Yeah. The womb, it can go back to infancy. And they might not totally have language. Right.But they feel it and they notice it and that's all they have to do is just notice it. Like, I know for myself, when I've done EMDR personally. Yeah.I was able to go to like my birth, like infancy kind of places and it's so that you can go very deep and there's some people specifically trained for that. But it is amazing. It's really like people look at me and they're like, is this magic? I'm like, it kind of feels like it.

Right.

Because it's such a powerful shift that they feel.

And in the moment I remember I did do it. I did several sessions in my early 20s when I was, I was doing therapy to deal with a traumatic experience that happened.And I did find it incredible. Incredibly desensitizing in that way that I was able to.

That's right. It's not so upsetting.

Yeah. And so yeah, there's no kind of.I guess there's no telling how many sessions it would take for any particular individual or is there like what do you usually prescribe to?

People they say, you know, and they say it can be you know, up to like as low as six sessions. So if you, if they've had a traumatic event and it's kind of a one time thing, you, you can be done in six sessions.Typically I'm seeing a lot more kind of dissociative symptoms. So people who are kind of zoning out or missing time, like, oh wow, the last two hours I don't know what I was doing, you know.So when there's dissociat there, it's going to take more time because for them to feel like they can even be in the room and be present is tougher. They're kind of just collapsing and shutting down.Or if there's been more layers of trauma, you know, and probably with these kids who've been through multiple traumatic experiences, it will, it could take longer, you know, more. A year and a half or two, you know, of meeting and working.So it just kind of depends on how extensive it is and how they respond to it, you know, is this. Not everybody can do it. Right. And that's okay. You know, it's kind of one of those tools for some and then other people.

Yeah.

I have a client who's like, Ms. Jenny, don't make me tap. I'm like, okay.

Right, right.

But they'll use like a buzzy, you know. Yeah.And they'll be doing sand tray and they'll have the buzzies and they're doing it, you know, but they're not having to tap or do any of the stuff. So we try to be creative with them and work with them.

So that is interesting because I remember for myself the eye movement we tried first and it didn't work for me. I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. And Then she put headphones on me and had this.And it was just this like, thing that, like a drumbeat or something that was in my ears and. And that really worked for me. And it makes sense because I've always been very, very auditory. I think it really just depends probably on the person.

Absolutely. Yeah. Finding what kind of feels comfortable for them. And I definitely have found kids. Like, I wish I had them to show you.They're just like, they look like those egg shakers in music class, you know, and they just hold on to that and it does like a little vibration.

Oh, that's cool.

So you can put it in their pockets. They can hold onto it. Yeah, it's very. It's not a big deal.And I have some kids too who will use like a drumstick or like a xylophone and slide back and forth or a paintbrush. You know, it's. Sky's the limit. As long as we're going back and forth using both sides of the body, it's fine. Yeah.

And how, how long would a typical session be? Like, how long are you going to ask? I guess it depends on the age of the child too. How long they can like do that for sure.

Yeah.Kids are so fun because literally it might be like five minutes of us doing some emdr and then I'm just going kind of let them do some play and kind of do what they want. And then we might notice something else. And I'll say, oh, that seems really important. Why don't we, you know, tap that in?And they're like, okay, you know, so I'll give you an example.I had a session with a child and he doesn't have a lot of trauma, but he's got some other struggles with like ADHD and things like that where he's starting to believe, you know, I'm stupid and I can't do it. And I was using child centered play, which is totally, you know, you just follow their lead.So I'm in my office playing hide and go seek with this kid. Golly day. It was hilarious. I'm like, I can't believe this is my job.But anyway, we're playing hide and go seek and he is able to be so still, like for the longest time, doesn't move and it's like hiding behind my sofa, like, so, so still so. But for a kid with adhd, I'm like, this is, this is important. This is kind of a big deal.So after we finished our game, you know, I said, what did you notice? And he was like, I have a superpower, Miss Jenny. And I was like, well, what is it? He was like, I can be still and I can focus.And I was like, you're right. And so we grabbed the buzzies and I just said, I want you to just notice how you have this power to be still and focus and so you can tap things in.Right?

Oh, that's beautiful.

The painful things you can tap out and the good things you can tap in. I was like, just soak. Soak up how you can focus and you can be still when you need to. And it was such an awesome.Like, we're using emdr, but it wasn't necessarily for trauma. It was just to address this belief, you know? Yeah, it's so fun. It's so fun.

It sounds. That sounds similar to me to eft.Are you familiar with eft, like Emotional Freedom Technique tapping, which I have also found a lot of success with and really loved that modality, because you can kind of do it anywhere. Like, when things come up, when even if it's a good thing or if it's a bad thing, you can use.

The thought through your body. Right? Yeah, I like EFT too. I use that a lot.Like, personally, if I'm going home from a hard day, I'll sit in the car and pull up a meditation for EFT and just be like, okay.

Yeah, it's amazing. It kind of just releases it.

Yes, it does. It's so good.

I'll link to that for the listeners. If you're unfamiliar with eft, I'll link to some info on that in the show notes as well. What about children? That.So, for instance, my children were brought home at three and a half weeks and three days. So they're. So. They've been with us the entire time. They've known no other parents or anything like that.But I am aware that they sustained trauma in the womb and all of that.Do you have to wait until the trauma actually reveals itself or can you get out in front of it and be like, let's just do EMDR and try to avoid them having to go through. Is that. What do you think of that?

I love that.

Yeah.

Because my kids are similar. We, you know, adopted them, brought them home from the hospital. But I. I know, you know that there's internal stuff from going through that.So what I would say is you do kind of have. I think you kind of have to have something surfacing in the present.

Okay.

You know what I mean? So is it that they get really down on themselves when they make A mistake? Is it that they feel like they have to be perfect? Does it.You know, where are we seeing some things that are telling us there's some kind of negative beliefs that are built in, and then you can kind of. It's almost like a doorway. Like, that's where we can kind of go in and kind of follow the nervous system to, you know, find where that went. So. Yeah.Because I know, like, my youngest son, you know, there. I can tell there's stuff that comes from, you know, what. What was going on with his birth mom and things like that.

And.

And he'll say to me, he'll say, mom, do you think we can just kind of tap through that for a minute? You know, you can tell when mom's a counselor. Right. So we'll just kind of lay there in bed and I just say, okay, we'll just notice it.That's all you got to do. Just visit and see what's there, you know, and just kind of giving him that sense of comfort. Like, you can notice whatever is happening now. You're.You know, it's not going to be too much. You're not alone.

Yeah.

And giving them that kind of inner strength of I can see it and be with it and bring support. You know, if I. If I believed I wasn't loved or.

I believe I wasn't wanted, that's a big one for, you know, I've had my daughter say so. Oh. Like, my first parents, like, they didn't want me, you know, and feeling rejected.

Right.

And it obviously isn't true. And I could say that till the cows come home.

Right.

That they weren't able to take care of you. It's not that they didn't want you. They wanted you very much.

A loving plan for her. Yeah.

But, like, how do you get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's complicated.

I think you're right. Yeah. And what they're finding with, you know, trauma is it's stored in the body. Right. So.

Right.

Mentally, she might know, you know, my mom and dad love me and they chose me.

Yeah.

But in our body, there's something that just doesn't really buy it, you know?

Right, Right. And it's also a little different with the fostering as opposed to, like, another adoption, because, like, they didn't actually make a plan for this.

Yeah. They moved. Right. Yeah.

They. It was not really their plan. So it's. That is a little bit. It's just sticky. And that is. Comes with the territory.

It does.And I think part of it is, you know, I tell kids a lot, you know, what you went through is painful, and this doesn't take away from the fact that this is painful and hurt.

Yes.

But it's going to be where you don't believe something about yourself that's not true and isn't helpful, you know, like, I'm going through this painful thing, but that doesn't mean I'm not good enough, you know, that doesn't mean I'm a failure. Like, it's just painful and hard, you know, But I can handle it now, and I'm loved now. And, you know.

Yeah, I love that because I think that children especially. I mean, I think adults do it too, but I know I did as a child. Like, children assign meaning to things that aren't necessarily right.Like, you connect it to, oh, this means I'm bad, or that's just where the head goes, you know, like, this happened. And that means that I am bad or I am unwanted or I am unloved or unlovable or whatever it is.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's so. And you never know where they do that at, you know?

Right.

As a therapist. Right. I'm with my clients and I have no clue. I'm like, I'm on the ride with you on the train. Like, let's see what's in the window.You know, I don't know. I might think it's when you got removed from the home or when the police show.

Right.

But really it was that you couldn't, you know, bring your stuffed animal with you. Like, who knows, you know, what the thing is that brings that shift for them?And so it's really, I think, important for us as caregivers and support is to really stay open to. I don't know, you know, But I trust that we can find out together.

You.

You can help, you know, share what you're noticing. And I'm here to be with you in it. I'm not here to tell you, oh, it's this or that, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

So I definitely feel very humbled all the time. Like, well, let's see what happens, because I don't know what. What is going to be the specific thing that we need to go to, you know?

Yeah.

But I trust that your body knows and. And we can just go wherever it needs to go.

Do you find that some children are afraid of. Of doing this? Like, they don't. Oh, God, this seems weird. I don't want.

Yeah, yeah. Some of them do. Especially if they have. You know, I have some clients who it's really, really hard for them to acknowledge being upset.You know, it's really hard. They're still in such, like, a high defensive state that it's hard for them to say, I'm scared or I'm mad.And so sometimes we have to do some work around that in terms of, you know, building up that resource. Like, it's okay to be mad, it's okay to be sad. You know, we can. We can notice that. And so we might have to do work there first. But most of them.It's cute. Most of them. Kids are so up for anything.

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And if you can make it sort of fun, that probably helps. Obviously, building trust.Once they trust you, then it's easier and that kind of thing. Yeah. Because I think a lot of kids also come from. If they're coming from trauma, that that trust piece is difficult at first.How do you sort of, like, deal with that right away up front? How do you gain their trust?

Oh, that is such a good question. Yeah. This sweet babies. I, you know, I just really try to first notice how it's affecting me. You know, what's it doing to me? Am I getting frustrated?Am I getting rushed? Like, oh, you know, I gotta help them and we gotta get this done, you know? Mm.So you gotta really kind of notice what it's doing inside of you and get yourself kind of settled first, because they pick up on all that, you know, I think that's where I use the child centered for a while with people, because that really builds the trust. It's that attunement.

Yeah.

So with child centered, what you do is you notice what they're doing and you model it and you reflect with them.So, like, if I have a kid come and he runs in and he goes to my box of animals and dumps them on the floor, you know, I'll say, oh, you picked the animals. You know, I don't say, oh, good job. That's the right thing to do. You know, I just acknowledge, like, you chose that, you know.

Yes.

And just sort of. And it sounds so dumb. Let me be honest, Rachel. When I first learned about this, I was like. I rolled my eyes so hard. I was like, this is so stupid.But. But I'm finding how helpful it is to. To build trust, you know? Like, I can choose. I have agency in this space and that I'm not going to be judged.You know, limits might have to get set, you know, Like, I'm not for hitting. I'm not for biting. I'm not for whatever, but I find that I don't have to do as much limit setting, Like, I really.When you give them that sense of trust and you want to pick this and you want to do that, and.And I'll join in if you want, or I can just hold space for that and look at you and smile at you and notice, like, oh, that seems frustrating for you. You seem upset, or, oh, you're smiling, you know, so attuning to them. I'm amazed at just. That just is like lightning for them.I mean, in terms of just getting them to that trust place, you know?

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's what I really recommend is just kind of meet them where they're at, go with what they're doing, what they're interested in, and really trusting. The process is kind of where I have to fall back on a lot.

Yeah. You know, I watched that with a therapist that my daughter went to. She loves art, and so she noticed right away that Izzy. That my daughter was.Was drawn to art. She had a lot of, like, art up in her little office. And.

Yeah.

And she really took that and then was just like, oh, do you like art? And as he was like, yes. And, you know, she was like, do you want some paper? And she just right away got her drawing.It was so, for her, very comforting and very, like, grounding for her to.

Do something that she knew she was.

Good at, that she liked and enjoyed doing. This new person is saying, like, it's okay to do that.

Permission, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That sense of coming alongside a child and not just being like, okay, come here, do this.You know, like, I'm alongside you and support you, and once we kind of. Kind of trust each other. Okay. Because facing the hard things, it's. It's scary for them, you know?

Right. Yeah. You don't want to just jump right into it.

It's too.

Yeah. Too much. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.Let's shift to parenting for a moment and just talk about how do you recommend a parent connect with their child or help them if they're experiencing big emotions?

Yes. Oh, I love that. That's such a good question. I would say, again, kind of going back to, what's it doing to you? I.My husband and I have this thing we say to each other is we kind of hold each other accountable. Am I able to be curious and compassionate right now? You know, because if I can.If I can't meet my child with curiosity and compassion, I'm not in a good place to bring that help to them yet, you know, and so we kind of use that as a litmus test for ourselves. And so, you know, working in the health care system, I worked there for, I don't know, six or seven years.And before there would be a code, you know, a medical code. They would say, everybody, check your pulse first. Like, check yourself before you go into the situation. Are you good?And I remember when I first learned about it, I thought it was so dumb. I'm so judgy. Turns out it takes me a minute to, like, get on board with stuff.But later on, the wisdom of that really has come back to me, of, okay, let me. How am I before I rush into the fire? You know, before I rush into help, Am I. Am I equipped?Am I in a good space to hold room for what they're feeling? You know? So that. That's what I would encourage parents to do, is kind of get yourself where you can handle it and be with them.Not that you're not bothered or you don't have to be like Zen Buddhist monk mom or dad, you know what I mean?Like, you might notice you're upset, but do you have your own arms around yourself in terms of, I can hold space for how I'm doing and them, you know?

Yeah. And then what happens if you really can't? Like, what if the answer to that is, like, no, absolutely not.I'm not in a place right at this moment where I can, like, do that. What do you recommend?

I recommend just kind of communicating in terms of. Because kids, like you said, will take that personal, like it's because I'm a bad kid or because whatever.So if you really have to disengage, I encourage parents to just say, I'm having a hard time and I just need a minute so that I can be a help to you, you know, really, like, helping kids understand, like, mom's grumpiness or mom's mood is mom's responsibility, you know, so I'm gonna get myself a little bit more settled so that I can help, and I'll be there in a minute, you know, I love that. Just to be real, you know?

Yeah, no, I love that.

And not blaming the kid. Because, I mean, I've been tempted sometimes with my own kids to say, you're driving me crazy, you know, I can'.Help you, you know, but really, just to say, you know what? I'm having a hard time. I'm getting frustrated, and I don't think I can be a help quite yet. So I'll be back.Let me Just give myself a minute and then I'll come back, you know, and I'll be totally, like, completely honest.Like, the thing I found that's the most helpful is just it looks like you're doing nothing but to be quiet with your kid and just be with them in the big feelings, you know, the homework meltdowns, the whatever they're dealing with. I found the biggest kind of shift with kids happens when you're a present. You're with them.I mean, I feel myself like calming down, just saying it, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

And just be in the room and what that looks like might not be. I'm not asking questions. I'm not even maybe looking at them eye to eye.I might just be like, shoulder to shoulder, or I might be sitting in the doorway of the room, and I might say, I'm here. I see that you're upset, and I'm here and just quiet.And because of the whole co regulation thing that we know now is when we're a calm presence with the dysregulated, upset child, you know, they start to kind of feed from that. It's like, okay, everything. I feel out of control, but Mom's saying it's not out of control, and so it must be okay.And I picture, like, rocks around a fire pit.Like, the fire starts to get contained, you know, so it's really asking less questions, saying less things, and just being as present with them as you can be. You know, it doesn't have to be a perfect moment.

Right.

But as best you can, just being that present and then, like, slowly, you know, like, my son loves to get his back scratched. So I might, after a few minutes, just say, you know, can I scratch your back for a minute? Are you ready for that? You know, and just. Okay.And then kind of let it start coming when it comes, when they're ready. Because a big thing is we. A teachable moment is not when they're having a meltdown. Like, that is not the time. Our kids cannot learn.They're not in a learning space. You know, they're in a survival space.

That's right.

So that whole idea of connect before you correct, you know, we have to just be with them and notice what's going on and, you know, try as best as we can not to lecture.

Yeah, I know. I know. It is.

It's hard.

Hard. It's hard sometimes to not do that. And it is. Yeah. I really appreciate everything you just said. That was just really good.

Oh, good. Yeah. I've learned through my own. My Own trials, you know, and experiences.But yeah, being with them, being quiet, it's almost like we don't recognize our own superpower as parents, you know, our foster parents or whatever. Like our presence is the power, you know, it's not having all the answers and having it all figured out.It's just that our kids don't have to be alone in whatever it is.

Right. Yeah.

It's just a really powerful thing.

I love that you mentioned that you have adopted children as well. Would you want, just for the sake of the show and the listeners, would you share your adoption story?

Oh, sure. Yeah. So let's see. Like so many adoption stories, it starts with infertility, you know, and so much just pain on our side.I wasn't able to get pregnant. And it was.It's really why I ended up becoming a therapist because I went through my own depression and anxiety and it was just really just stirred up so much not being able to get pregnant and letting go of this whole idea of being able to do that.

Yes.

And so that was kind of the backdrop a little bit, you know, and then when we really decided to let go of the whole fertility piece and pursue adoption, it is like a roller coaster, you know, you're just trying to make these decisions and how are we going to pay for this? I still don't know how we paid for my kids adoptions. I don't know where the money came from. Just like we just got these random checks.Things just happened because we. We don't know where it all came from. But so my first child, we were actually in a hospital waiting room and we had just decided to do adoption.We were. My husband's dad was having surgery. So, you know, everyone's kind of sitting around, right? And what do we do? Just chat.And so we were sharing, like we're getting ready to start the adoption process. We're doing the home study and a family friend was there and just kind of listening and celebrating, you know. Oh, that's so great.You know, and she called us a couple weeks later and she said, jenny, I have a friend whose daughter is pregnant and doesn't know what she's gonna do. And she's like, I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, jenny and Ben, this girl's having this baby.And so she linked us together and she lived in Arkansas and she had really just found out she was pregnant, knew she wanted to make an adoption plan. And so it was kind of neat. We were able to like, talk to her on the Phone every week during the pregnancy and really build relationship with her.And we went out. We were there when he was born. She let me be in the room. I know, it was just such a blessing.And we still, like, have open dialogue with her and so appreciative of her. But I'll never forget. Gosh, I'll probably get emotional talking about it.I remember when it was time to leave the hospital and we had let birth mom, you know, have time with the baby and just kind of let us know when she was ready, you know, because she was supposed to be getting discharged and the baby was getting discharged, and we were just sort of like, it's, you know, this is her time. And so she called us and said, you know, I'm ready. And, gosh, my husband and I, we were walking into the room in the hallway.We're, like, walking down the hallway, just feeling like we're getting ready to be given this gift. Like, how do we deserve this? You know? And we're just crying and holding on to each other.And we walk in and she's crying, and she handed the baby to my husband. And really, I mean, that was the big piece for her. She just said, I want him to have a dad.Like, he's gonna need a dad, you know, and just to receive, you know, something so unselfish from her and just am amazed by her. And so, yeah, we've had really open communication and such a great support, you know, he.He broke his leg last week, and so I called her because I was like, he's having anesthesia. Do you guys have any reactions? You know, so it's kind of nice if there's medical questions, I could.

Sure.

Like that.

Absolutely.

And so then four years later, well, you know, I guess it was like two and a half years later, we decided to adopt again. And that was different because now we have another child. And how much do we share with him? You know?

Yeah.

How much do we let him in on this journey of the roller coaster? You know? And it took about two years, you know, for everything to come together. And I can remember my oldest, so he was like three and a half.And every night we would pray, you know, God, bring us our baby, you know, and so one night he looks at me and he goes, mom, I don't believe in prayer anymore. And I was like, what? Why not? And he said, I've been praying for a baby. I pray for our baby all the time, and we don't have him.And so, you know, broke my heart. And I said, all right. Well, let me pray for you for a second.And I was just like, at this age, he was really into toads and frogs and turtles and all the things. And I was like, lord, you love Nathan. Will you just show him your love, like in some kind of special way, like, let him know that you love him?And that was the end of the prayer. I mean, I didn't know what to say again, like, I don't know the answer. I can't fix this for you, you know?

Yeah.

So he and I had been looking for toads every night and going out trying to find a toad. So the next day I get a call from my best friend. She was like, jenny, I have a toad for Nathan. Have him come over. So we go over, we find a toad.And he was like, mom, I think it's from God. God loves you, me. He, you know, he heard our prayer and he brings him this toad. And then my best friend calls me the next day.She's like, jenny, there's hundreds of toads. Come back. And so we drive back over, and I was like, nathan, this is God's love. Like, all, like, for him, a three and a half year old little boy.Like, all the toads. Buckets full of toads, you know.And so it was interesting, you know, going through a second adoption with a son that you're trying to protect his heart. And how do I kind of lead him through this?

Yeah.

So we definitely leaned on our faith a lot and just, you know, trying to share age appropriate, but at the same time letting him in on the story, you know.

Yeah.

And he. He was so cute. He would, like, put the most random things. So we had an empty nursery for like a year and a half, waiting, you know, to get matched.And I would go in there and I'd find, like a used bar of soap. And he was like, I put that in there for the baby.

Okay. It was hilarious.

So our second son was similar. It was through a friend. We got a call and it was different with her.She was due in two weeks and was really just not sure what to do, but was in a tough situation and just didn't think she'd be able to take care of him. And so it was a little bit more like, are you ready? Could you do it? And we were like, we've been ready.This is nursery has been ready for a long time. And so it was a little quicker once things got going right. But same thing. She let me be in the room.She let me stay with her in the hospital, which was so Generous, you know, and saying, you know, we went and visited her this past summer. You know, she's had three more sons, which is neat, and, you know, has been able to parent them.And so my youngest was really excited to meet them and see her. And we got in the car after visiting this summer, and the first thing my son says to me is, mom, they have my thumbs.I was like, they did have your thumbs.

Oh, that's cute.

Like, I don't have his thumbs, you know?

Yeah.

So it's just neat. Like, again, with kids, you just don't know what the thing is going to be. Right. It was the thumbs.

The thumbs.

Okay, There we go. It's been really fun.And just to see, like, they have different needs, you know, One, my youngest son wants to see his other siblings, wants to know what's happening.My oldest is like, oh, that's great for them, but I'm good, you know, so, you know, just trying to be open and flexible with what they need and not make it be one thing or another, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's really beautiful. It's so great that you get to stay in touch with the. With the families.That's just so wonderful for children. Yeah.

Yes. It has been a big help, for sure. So that's great. I'm very grateful.

We only have a couple more minutes left. I want to ask you about your children's book. Tell me and tell the listeners about your children's book.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So this book, it was my youngest son. He and I had gone.The whole family had gone on this trip where we were swimming with all these, like, tropical fish, but in this tank kind of deal, there was this huge stingray that was, like, freaking all the kids out, and they didn't want to swim. So he and I had made up a song about, like, how to not be afraid or something.And he's like, on my back, and we're swimming in this giant stingrays around us. So that was kind of the origin story for the book. Then the lockdown happens, and, like, kids everywhere are freaking out.And so we decided, let's make a story about how do you help kids face their fears? How can we make it like a playful, fun thing? And so made for this was written kind of based out of our own experience.And then just how to come alongside our kids.And for them, it kind of like we were talking about with emdr, like, how can you notice your fear and be with it and kind of bring that support when it shows up rather than let it take over. So it's just a fun story.It kind of brings this sweet narrative to, you know, helping kids with separation or learning a new skill or, you know, those fears of failing or something bad's gonna happen. So it's, it's just fun and sweet and just one of those good kind of stories that your kid will get encouraged by. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. Yeah.

And where can people connect with you if they want to know more about your services or buy the book or whatever?

Yeah. So we have a website, so it's Ms. Jennybooks.com so it's Ms. Jennybooks.com so on the website you can find all the things.There's videos we've made for kids and parents, which are nice kind of resources too. And then the book is anywhere you buy books so were made for this by Jenny Hornby.And on the website, I'm thinking of your daughter, there's coloring sheets, you know, with the characters so you can like read it and then you can sit in color and kind of talk about, you know, what they noticed and things like that. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. I know kids are the best.

Yeah. It seems like you really love your job and that's always, always so nice to see.

Oh, thank you for having me and thank you for all that you're doing. You're doing great work.

This has been the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to adopt, produced by Aquarius Rising. Original music composed by Joe Fulginetti.For more information or to stay in touch, visit fromfoster2forever.com. That's from Foster the number2forever.com and stay connected with us on Instagram @Foster2foreverpodcast. That's Foster the number2forever podcast.We'll see you next time.