I would want to encourage the parents to like, get their own support because the reality that, like, it's huge and amazing and like, what a gift. And also there's a flip side, you know, that there can be exhaustion and resentment.Like all the things I would want to encourage, like, yes, of course you want your kid taken care, of course you do. But it's also important to honor your own needs, which ultimately impacts the kid.

It's the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt. I'm your host, Rachel Fulgenetti.I'm so happy to introduce Stacy Schaeffer today. Stacy is an author, she's a child therapist specializing in grief and she is a seeker of joy, which I absolutely love. So welcome Stacy.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

You specialize in play therapy and I was wondering if you could just give our listeners a sense of what that is exactly and why it's beneficial.

So the line in the field is the language of kids is play.Because a five year old is not going to sit down and be like, I am feeling discouraged about the dissonance I'm experiencing in kindergarten, you know, and so their, their communication comes through play. And so one of my favorite modalities is sand tray. And you know, for those who might not know, there, I have a big table. It looks like a coffee table.My friend Dave made that mine. And you take the top off and it's gutted and it's filled with a special soft and sand.And then I have what looks like every Happy Meal character over time lined up in family groups. So one of the things to do a directive is like, show me pick a character to be you. Show me what it's like to be you. And so it's fascinating.Like I had a kid in a high conflict divorce pick themselves and then they picked Darth Vader as dad and a teeny tiny mouse as mom and put themselves in the middle. You're like, well, that's the only one. How do you wish things were? And they move stuff.So that, that's the probably the most common modality of play therapy is Xantre.

I love that. Yeah. Is it also where you have like a rake or something and you can like rake.I, I, when you say sand tray, I think of like the Japanese art of like basically making and making pictures with sand. Is that incorporated at all or it's, that's a total thing.

I mean, I have like the, in a drawer in the Table. Like, there's tools like that, and sometimes, like, people just find it meditative to do. To do things like that. Because, I mean, the.The sand itself is a very chill experience. And there's so many things in. In the other office that people can fidget with touch so that it feels less like a light bulb over your head.Tell me all your feelings. And so, yeah, I do have those tools.

If someone were to come to you with a child that they've just welcomed into their home and a child needs, obviously is in need of some kind of therapy, maybe has been through repetitively traumatic instances, as many children coming from foster care are, what advice would you give to the parents regarding getting any kind of therapy?

As we know, attachment is so important, right? Especially, like, with foster kids and adoptive kids. So I would say, like, to tread lightly, to build that rapport.Like, it's really important to me that kids feel safe in my office and that it's not too rushed. So I always tell kids that they have a right in my office called I pass. And I'm like, I'm a therapist.So I ask nosy questions to try to help you feel better. If there's something you don't want to answer, not now, not yet, not ever, you say pass, and that's always honored. And I'm like.Because I don't answer things, I don't answer. And so I find that usually kids come back to that themselves. And so it's important that they don't feel like.Like it's any other situation, like a teacher, where they're, like, required to answer a thing. And so I would say to, like to be patient in, like, if you. The adult, trust the therapist. Because I always do an intake with the parents first.If you feel safe, you know, at first, because that's super important, you know, right. Then just to know that, like, it's my job to, like, earn the right to be heard. And I have a therapy dog, so that's helps, too.

Oh, that's wonderful. How do you incorporate the dog? Is it just the fact that. That Willow is there, that's.That's comforting to children, or do you work in some capacity with Willow?

I mean, it's. It's mainly that, you know, she greets everyone, which is really, really cute. Sometimes, like, I'll be like, do you want to tell Willow?And so they'll be like, willow, I feel, you know, and then she's the mainly, like, a source of comfort. There was a school shooting in our area in September, and in our school District. Yeah. And I could talk forever about that issue.But so that day and that week, like, kids were like crying into her fur.

Yeah. Wow. How does your work differ if you're working with older kids rather than the young ones? I can.You still do some sort of play therapy with the older children?

You know, it obviously depends on the kids because there could be like a kid who's still a young 13 year old or an old 13 year old. They're really, really different, you know.

Yeah.

And so I do have a, like a lot of games. I have a lot of icebreaker games.Something that is really important to me and that I talk about a lot of my, like, social media is that I am up with what the current trends are like in social media. I'm doing, I'm making a course that hopefully be ready this summer about how to help your kids navigate social media in this day and age.And, and so I know, like, what's going on with like music, what's going on as much as I can. Right. And so we can have like conversations based on that and like, you know, different games, like, based on that.Like if you were this character in Stranger Things Things, tell me how you would act so that, that kind of thing.Because I feel it's really, it's a soapbox issue for me as a clinician that if kids know that you care about their world, they're more likely to talk to you about the harder things. And because like some of the, some of the things are arguably boring. Right.And so some of the video games, I know so much about Minecraft, I have these magnetic blocks, they're Minecraft themed. I'll have a kid, like, show me what your safe enclosure would be like. I try.Every kid I see, I try to at least know something about one thing they're really into.

Yeah, that's great. What is your feeling about updating the parents on the progress or what's going on within the therapy session?Because I had a situation where once, just as an example, where I was taking my daughter to therapy and I asked for an update because it had been like a bunch of weeks and I didn't know really anything that was going on.And this, I think my daughter was like eight at the time or something and she was like, I'm sorry, there's confidentiality and I can't really like say anything to you about it. And I was like, she's eight. Like, can you just give me like some kind.And she was like, you know, if there's ever anything that Comes up, that's where she is talking about harming herself or someone else. Then I would certainly tell you that. But other than that, we really hold that. And I was just like, I don't know.So that didn't work for me as a parent. What. What is your feeling on that?

Yeah, like what I. I tell parents in the intake and then the kids in the first session is, unless you tell me you're gonna hurt yourself, someone else. So I'm inserting you. It's confidential. I'm like, but your parents gonna want to know what's going on in here. So here's what you can trust.And I tell, like, both. I'm like, you can trust that I will never quote you, but your parent, you know, has right to know what's happening in here.So I will tell them either something I said, something we did a strategy that we're gonna try, but your direct words, unless it's in those categories, will never get back to them, because you can just tell them that yourself, you know, and there are definitely things, like, in the gray area, but that's like, keep everybody happy. Because, I mean, I would think that that's weird to not know what's going on behind closed doors with an adult. And you're eight.

Yeah, I was just like, that.

Just. That doesn't sit well. If something is in, like, a gray area, like, I consider bullying, you know, in some of that gray area.No, like, say it's like, you know, it's. It's not gotten out. It's a little annoying, but it's, like, concerning.And so if I find that there's something that I really shouldn't hold, I'll be like, okay, so here are your choices.We can bring mom in, and we can talk together, and I can lead the conversation about, like, some concerns I have about this person, or I can call mom later, or I can trust that you will. And I will check in with mom in about two days. And so to see how that sits.And most of the time with those kind of things, they're like, I want you to leave the conversation. So then I'll bring them in. And it's.I really try a lot to normalize things, so I'm like, mom, have you ever had a situation that you felt embarrassed when you were a kid to tell your parents that? Usually they pick up where I'm going, and they're like, yeah. And so it's important to build that bridge.But I don't think that there are things that, I mean, that's not really great. If I'm holding it, I'm like, well, that sucks. See you next Tuesday,

right?

Yeah, I don't think that would be great.I mean, a lot of times kids will tell me, say with bullying, we'll stick with bullying, that they don't want to tell mom because mom will do something, mom will call, mom will email, and they're like, that will make it worse. So I'll say like, what if we ask mom, like, you know, like a couple of different options.And so I'll say like, would you be willing to hold this for a week and see if things get better? And if things don't get better, then it's the green light to contact the teacher.So like, you know, usually they're, they're willing to do that, but of course the parents gonna want to do something.

Right.

And so, but that's usually what I find to be the barrier of why they don't want to tell mom.

Yeah, that makes sense. What about in the situation where the child may be suicidal or something that really, really intense like that. How do you handle something like that?

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's usually in the category of hurt themselves. And so like, that's, that's when things shift.The buzz line in the field, you know, is like if they are in imminent danger, but you know, and then so you're like, you know, do like the flipping point of if a kid gets hospitalized or not is if they have a plan. And so. But I mean, there's still things alarming, in my opinion, without having like an actual plan. So I mean, it really depends.A lot of it depends on the family dynamics. But if there's a kid that enters my office that I'm concerned about, they're not going to leave my office without the parent knowing.

Right.

So sometimes it does look like disappointing the kid, you know, but they know the limitations of confidentiality from the very beginning.

Right. A lot of these children, I mean, I would say all of these children, they have Medicaid. Right.So there's a barrier there in terms of finding really good therapy sometimes. I'm assuming you're a private practice. Right. So that doesn't. Wouldn't include like Medicaid or.

No, I'm a Medicaid provider.

You are her Medicaid provider.

Amazing. Yes. Because. Because of that, I feel like there's inequity in healthcare.

Yes, that's what I've really experienced.Both of my children have Medicaid and it's really difficult to find great Providers if they're in a state that's not Colorado and they can't get to someone like you. Do you have any advice about how to select a therapist or what questions to ask?What are some of your suggestions about, like, how to go about finding the right therapist for your child?

Yeah, it's really hard. I would say there's a certification that a lot of kid therapists have these days called Synergetic Play Therapy, sbt.So on the website, there's, like, a list per state of, like, providers, but you don't necessarily know if they're Medicaid. There's. That. There's also Psychology Today, and you can filter the search for, like, if they take Medicaid, if they specialize.

Yes.

But I will just say that it is really, really tricky because a lot of good clinicians have waiting lists and that there's. There's not a lot of openings. And so, yeah, I would say to, like, to cling to someone that you trust and ask them who know.Because, I mean, I. I have friends in other states that could potentially be helpful. But, yeah, like, there's no easy way to say, like, it. It's really, really, really hard.

Yeah. Yes, it is. I had a question about generational trauma. I think that a lot of these children have generational trauma.I think a lot of us in general have generational trauma. Can you talk a little bit about that? Maybe for the listeners who aren't familiar with that term, what that is, and. And how you can work to heal that?

In my book, I. I touch on that a lot.So I am an only child, and I believe that had my mom had the right support, had a good podcast she listened to, had a book, the very trajectory of my life would have been different. Like, everything. No, but, you know, in the 80s and 90s, they didn't have the resources the. That we have now.My mom died before texting, and so I think that when I make videos for social media, oftentimes I'm speaking to my mom out there, that I'm just like, if one person is like, hey, I'm gonna try this strategy different, or if I, like, yeah, I'm actually gonna go to my own therapy, that that's enough for me to make that time I made the video worth it. So I think. Think it's the reality of knowing that we are all. We all have, like, broken stories because we're all humans.You know, parents will say to me, I think I broke my kid. I'm like, first of all, your kid's not broken. Second of all, they're being raised by humans, so. Yeah. Okay.And so I think that the more work that we do to heal our own wounds, realize our own attachment issues, our own limitations, our own trigger points, the better that the younger generation has that's around us. So I think realizing that we all come into the story with intergenerational Trump, because that's kind of the legacy. And so in order to.To heal, to make it not so hard for them, I think it's imperative that we do our own work.

Absolutely. Yeah. Let's talk about your book. You mentioned it. Can you tell the listeners what it is and talk a little bit more about the book?

Oh, yeah.

Book is called With Love from a Children's Therapist by Stacey Schaefer.

Yes.So my book, I would say that it is part memoir from surviving a traumatic childhood and part clinical guidance that I've seen from sitting on the other side of the couch for 20 years. And I was on a podcast that she introduced my book as a guide to not emotionally damage the next generation. And I really liked that.It's called Combination of Nuggets of Things over the years that I've picked up that might be helpful and perhaps things that I needed to have a better journey in my childhood that younger Stacy deserved but didn't get. My book is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I did my own audiobook. I flew to Nashville. So if you like this voice.I'm recovering from laryngitis, so it doesn't sound like this, but, um, it's on audible and Spotify.And if you go to my website, which I'm sure will be in the show notes, you can put in your email address and you'll get the first chapter of my book for free.

And what is your website? Just in case people don't have access to the show notes?

Yeah. Oh, it's Stacy Schaeffer dot com. So Stacy with no E, Schaefer with the C and two Fs. Because there's a million ways to spell my name.

Okay. And are you on. Are you active on. I think you mentioned social media. What's your favorite platform and where people find you there?

Yeah. Instagram is hope restored.

Hope restored.What would you say, people who are welcoming a new child into their home, what would be the advice for how to approach this new relationship outside of therapy, just for the people in their own home?

I do see a lot of adopted kids, personally. What I think is important is to recognize, of course, that you want this child to have a Safe place. Realize they're. They're in a safe space now.But it's also equally important to honor the grief of what has been, because, you know, like, if they're in that situation, it's not for a great reason. And so I think sometimes we want so bad to jump to the good stuff without honoring the story, you know, And I.And I think that everybody just wants to be seen and heard. So there's a family that I see that's amazing and incredible, and I love. I love this family. And there was, like, a.A part of the story that was really painful and so brought, like, mom in, you know, to say, hey, like, let's honor this part.And, you know, their mom's like, yes, but I think we as people don't like to deal with the hard and the scary and think that if we don't go there, it'll just stay away and it doesn't.

Right. Yeah.

You know, and so. Yeah. And so I think to.To be open to just the reality of, you know, yes, they have all these great things in front of them, and they have a great life now, but there's pain there.And so to be able to hold back both, I think, is super healing to be, like, I am not going to feel, like, insecure about the fact that you're grieving whatever story you came from, also knowing that, like, you're safe now.

Yeah, absolutely. There's also the thing of. A lot of people do visits with the birth family.

Yeah.

And the emotional toll that that takes going back and forth for the child. For the whole triangle, of course, but for the child especially, how can they handle that?Like, I have a lot of people that I know who have said, you know, my child is great. They're fine. Then they go for their visit, and everything kind of explodes.And then, you know, by the time we have them back to, you know, a baseline and things are good, then they go see them again, and it goes and explodes again.

Yeah. I. I'm thinking of a family that recently got a voicemail, you know, and that from, you know, from the biological parent, and that just, like, was.It was a tailspin.And so I like the idea of creating, like, rhythms or routines, like, in response, because I think a lot of what happens is that trauma gets stored in the body. We try too hard to, like, go to the logical, like, right away, like, as a society.And so I like the idea of having some kind of ritual, whether it is, like, you know, depending on the age, like, launching themselves into, like, a squishmallow pile. Like getting a plate from the thrift store, writing what they feel and smashing it outside, you know, like something I. I do that.I'm sure the custodians here love me the pieces, but I do stuff like that a lot with kids. Like, we go out to the dumpster and then I'll take a video of them for the parent. It's slow mo. It's really satisfying.I think that like, once, like some of that trauma, like, gets like out of the body, they're able to like, think more clearly and have that conversation. But I think sometimes we again want to make it better so that. Because we don't want the people that we love to be in pain. Of course we don't.

Yeah.

But we try to go too fast there when really some of that ick just like, is just. It's. It's really primal, you know, like, because like, those birth wounds are so primal.There's no replacing and no one's saying that I'm trying to replace it, like, but I want to be like a support to you, but honor that. Like, there's ick that's gonna be there.

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I love the, the piece of advice to physicalize it to do that. I. I remember once taking a course where they had us smash coconuts.Coconuts. Like, yeah, you can like smash. I mean, it wouldn't be good for like a little kid because it's kind of hard to smash.But if you get like a whole coconut and you know, you're either, you know, preteen and above, probably could do it. And you, you smash it. You go outside and you smash it. And it really is satisfying putting that in my pocket.

Noted.

I think there's, there's something to the, the somatic piece of it. And I know somatic. Somatics is like such a buzzword now, but do you incorporate that in your work in other ways?

Yes, I. Well, so my safe place, my. My. My outlet is. I kickbox. And it is like my very, very happy place. I always tell I was like, yeah, I like punch bags.Kids like you. I was like, I punch bags, so I don't punch people. Life is hard. And so I have a kid size punching bag. It's called a. A boa.A bag of air is the brand and you can write on it. And so I have kids boxing gloves. And so we'll do a lot of stuff because, like, I know how cathartic it is for me.And I have pool noodles, which make a really Satisfying sound. If you hit against a wall or the punching back, they can write what they are mad or upset about.And then one of the strategies is called voicing the bag. And so then you're like, you're doing the voice of the thing they're mad at.Like, I have one kid that every time I see them, they're like, can we get the bag out? Yes, we can. Yes, we can.

Oh, that's really cool. I love that. Great idea. What have I missed?Have I missed anything special that you would like to highlight or any kind of nuggets that you, you like to talk about?

Well, when I, right before we started recording, I was talking to my friend Tess, and she adopted Aspen, who is her cousin, but, like, from when she was really young. And Aspen's now, like 11. And I've learned from Tess just, like, how real it is, the gamut of emotions as a foster mom slash adoptive mom.And so you know about, like, what, that it's not all, like, sunshine and daisies, like, once they're adopted and that there's real, real feelings.And so I think I would want to encourage the parents to, like, get their own support because the reality that, like, it's huge and amazing and like, what a gift. And also there's a flip side, you know, that there can be exhaustion and resentment, like, all the things. Absolutely.I would want to encourage, like, yes, of course you want your kid taken care. Of course you do. But it's also important to honor your own needs, which ultimately impacts the kid.

Absolutely. That's. That's a beautiful piece of advice and something that I really am trying every day to take better care of myself.You know, I want to go back full circle to when we started, started and I introduced you, and your introduction included seeker of joy. And I am also a seeker of joy. And I think especially now in these this day and age, we really need to seek out joy.So if you, if you want to say a couple of words about that and how you do that, I would love to, to hear about that.

Yeah, I have, I have friends with a boat, so in the summer we surf. So I really like to serve like a kickboxer. I always have in my schedule something to look forward to.And so I always, I always like, encourage my, like, teens, young adults, like to put something on their schedule that they're looking forward to. I. I try to, like, travel when I can. I was just in Colombia with a friend, but it was really important to me to unplug.Like, kids are like, what do you mean you're gone for a week? And I'm like, you need me to be gone for a week?And so I try to practice what I preach about self care because it's just not glamorous to be burnt out. And it's not a badge of honor. Like, they kind of told us in our 20s, like, it, you know, like.And so, like, it's important to me that I'm taking care of this vessel so that I can support other people.

And what if the child says, I don't have anything to look forward to? Like, what if you say, oh, put something on your calendar to look forward to? And what if they're like, I. I don't have anything?

Yeah, well, I. I also try to encourage, like, it. Not to have to be something big. Right. Like, to not. Like, you don't have to travel to South America to have the thing like, you're looking.

Right. Yes.

You know, like, it can be as simple as, like, I want you to go, like, watch your show and notice, like, how you feel in your body after you watch the show. I want you to make a plan with a friend. You know, like, it doesn't have to be, like, huge, but something that, like, is adding a little bit.Like, I'm having dinner with friend tonight. Super excited. And so that there's recognition that it's not all hard. You know, when it can feel like, all good or all bad and then they swing. Yeah.I'm personally going through stuff. I'm really irritated about my voice and also super excited about tonight.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that that is a capacity that we all need to learn we can increase. Right. Is how to hold, you know, multiple things at once. And, you know, to.To be comfortable with being uncomfortable and to just be able to say, yeah, like, this stuff is really bad, but it's not all bad. You know, I can take a walk outside, and that really shifts my. For me personally, man, I get outside for like 10 minutes and just walk around.I feel better. Yeah.

Yeah. I have a chapter in my book called they're all hashtags. Because the subtitle of my book is hashtag Lessons I've learned along the Way.But I have a chapter called hashtag and also. So, like, it. It is literally about that, about, like, honoring the two.Like, this is true, and this is also true, you know, like, that, like, you know, it can feel like the world is on fire. And also I'm seeing good things that people are doing in the world to fight back.You know, that there's that there's, there's both happening and I think if I had learned that when I was younger, you know, that it would have been a really helpful to be like, you know, there's always the two that's happening and it's to live in the in between that I think can help us stay afloat.

I love that. Stacy, it's so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining us. Her book again is With Love from a children's therapist, Stacy Schaeffer.Thank you. This has been the Foster to Forever podcast.Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt produced by Aquarius Rising, original music composed by Joe Fe Fulgenetti.For more information or to stay in touch, visit from foster to forever.com that's from foster the number2forever.com and stay connected with us on Instagram at foster2forever podcast. That's foster the number two forever podcast. We'll see you next

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