Birth Order: How It Affects Fostering and Adopting with Dr. Robert Hurst

I get this question a lot. I have a biological child, but I've always been called to foster to adopt. Like I really want to adopt.You would absolutely suggest that they go for a younger child than their biological child.

Absolutely. But we have to be careful.The child that they're adopting, what was their birth order and what relationship family relationship were they in before they got adopted?

It's the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to Adopt. I'm your host, Rachel Fulgenetti.

Hello and welcome. I am so happy to have Dr. Robert Hurst on the show today. He is a birth order expert. He's also an orthodontist.And I cannot wait to hear more from this interesting fellow.He wrote this book called Life's Fingerprint and it's all about birth order, which I thought would be a really cool thing to talk about in relation to bringing new children into your family. So, Dr. Hurst, welcome.

Thank you. This is going to be really fun. I have so much information to give you, especially bringing new children into a family. We call that a blended family.

I am just thrilled. This is something that I've actually been really passionate about since learning that it was a thing back in college.I remember selecting this as a topic for a paper because I was always fascinated with birth order and how it affected me in my life. My brother is 10 years older than me, my sister is nine years older than me, and my other brother is seven years older than me.So I was the baby by a lot. So I wonder if we could just kick off this whole thing by just dissecting that for a minute.

Sure. There's a lot of things that are going on with what you just told me. Now, traditional birth order theory starts out with an only child.Now the only child doesn't have any siblings, and so they relate to their parents. And actually there's different types of only children. They're really an amalgamation of the parents birth orders. So every only child is different.If they had two parents that were second born or third born or fourth born, they take on these characteristics. Now that only child becomes a firstborn when the next child is born. So now they're a number one and then there's a number two in the family.And now they have to share some of the attention of the parents. And this doesn't go over too well with most of those first children. Then when number three comes along.Well, number three has got all kinds of relationships to understand. Actually about 17 different ones between the parents. The firstborn, the second born, their relationship between the two kids themselves.So third borns, they're really good at relationships and people and they see life very differently than number one and number two. Sometimes number two is considered the middle child, but I don't like to use that term because what happens when you have four children?Are there two middles? No, the number two child is a number two. And they don't like to be told what to do.That's why sometimes they're thought to be stubborn because number one, they want to be in charge. Number one, I'm in charge. And number two says, don't tell me what to do, you're not in charge of me.And then number four comes along and number four is the true baby in the family. Everybody takes care of the baby because they have three older siblings.Now, what makes you so special and what makes the book so special is that it talks about double birth orders. Now everyone says, what is that? How can you have two birth orders? Well, what happens? There's actually two types of double birth.

Orders, but the first one is what you are.

You're a combination of an only child and number four.

This happens when there's at least a.

Four year gap between children and then.

That child is kept at home and.

Is nurtured like an only child.

So they take on the characteristics of.

An only child, which is someone that is very adult, like they can take on responsibility, they think like an adult, but then you add another birth order with them. In your case, number four, which is the baby in the family, and you.

Have two birth orders as far apart.

As you can get.

And so sometimes you're number four, you're a lot of fun and you're the.

Baby and life is great.

And other times you're an only child and very serious. And we have to get this right. And number four says, why do we have to be so serious?

And number only child says, well, because.

You got to be serious, but I don't want to be serious.

So that's what happens when you have a double birth order. You have two personalities within the same person. And in your case, you were so.

Special in the family, so special, your older siblings did not understand you at all because at times you were stronger than any of them when you displayed your only characteristics.

And then at times you were the baby and you said, I can't do this, you got to help me. I can't do this at all.

I'm really lost.

So if people understood their true birth.

Order, and that's the first step that.

We talk about, in the book, find out who you really are.

Now, I said that there was two.

Types of double birth orders.

One is the type that you are.

With an only child.

The other type, I'll use, let me.

Use Princess Di as an example.

She had two older siblings.

Then there was a big gap.

Then she was born, and a few.

Years later her brother was born.

So she was the third born in the family, but she becomes the oldest in the second family of children, she and her brother. So she's a one and a three. So that's the other type of double birth order.

Now I'll mention someone everybody knows, our president, Donald Trump.

He's a double birth order. He's a one and a four. So the four characteristics is he says.

Exactly what he feels like. There's no, there's, there are no limits to what he'll say.

Yes, this is true.

And then on the one side, he has to be presidential and be in charge. And, and so, and that's what makes him the master negotiator, because no one knows who they're dealing with.And that's why he wrote the book on negotiating, because he came by it naturally.

He doesn't know why, but we know why. And that's because of his double birth order.

Now, when we talk about families that.

Are blended and you bring in other.

Children, this is really easy to understand. Every child that goes up in birth order or stays the same is perfectly.

Adjusted in the new family.

Every child gets demoted in birth order,.

Does not adjust to the new family. I'll give you an example of somebody in my practice, because that's where I got all this information was all the patients in my office.

This one little girl who was an only child and her mother, she fell in love with a divorced man that.

Happened to have two children in my office as well.

And, and they each had their own homes. He had two girls and she was just had the only child. And so they said, well, you know,.

We're going to get married and get together. And I said, okay.

Now, this little only child, as a patient, she was wonderful. She followed all the rules, she did everything, brushed her teeth, they got married. And she went from being an only child to being number three.Two older sisters. First she thought that would be fun. Then she found she had to share a room. And she found that she was no longer the center of attention.And within six months, they divorced and she moved back to her mother's house, and her mother moved back to her.

House because they, they couldn't.

The only child Has a lot of. A lot of abilities to control the parent because remember, they're like that parent. They're like a little adult.And, and she was so strong that she, she said, you know, that's the end of this. I can't. I can't take this being. He didn't know she was number three, but she was not number only anymore.And so they divorced and that was the end of it. So that's what happens.

If the two older girls kept their birth order.

They were number one and number two from only to a three.

What I'm hearing is something that was suggested to us. My, My husband and I, when we were thinking about. We.We fostered to adopted our daughter and then we decided to bring another child in and, and do the same thing. And we were told to preserve the birth order. Definitely preserve the birth order.And, and I guess that's what they're talking about when they say that. I understood it to just be like, you should only bring someone in that's younger than. Than the child you currently have.

They were very insightful because.

Yeah, that's.

I don't. They must have read my book. The first child you brought in was how old when you brought the second child in?

So my, My daughter was three and a half weeks old. So she was a baby baby. And then five years later, she. We brought in my son who was three days old, so he was a baby, baby, baby too.But they have five years between them. Now. Five years is like a magic number, right? Or is it four? Four is the magic number.

Four years. Four years in school. Four school years or five? So you have two children with double birth orders. The girl, she's a one only.Very strong, follows the rules. She's great. And you got a two only. Who is an immovable object if he doesn't want to do something. Very high pain threshold too.He's tough, tough, tough. Okay.

It's so funny that you're so. You're absolutely right, like 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. Now you being a four only now I know that the firstborn in your family was a boy. Then there was a girl, then there was a boy.So my guess is that your husband was either a number one or a number three.

That's so interesting.

What is he?

Well, it's hard to say because he has an adopted sister who is around the same age as him. She was adopted from Korea. So he had an older sister. Has an older sister, Regina. Two years later he was born. And then they brought in at.I think they were Susan might have been around 6 years old or something.They, or maybe 5, brought Susan in to the family with Joe, my husband, and put them in the same grade together because they didn't actually know her exact birth age because she was adopted from Korea. So they just made her the same age as him. And that was their situation. So I don't even know.

Well, if she dethroned him from his position, then he became a three, which would be similar to your brother, which is a three. And since there was an older girl, maybe that happened. And of course, now in his case, there was no number four. So he doesn't understand you at all.I mean, you are foreign to him. And of course, at times you're an only child, so you run the show. Okay. Only when you become a four, you become, you know, very playful. And then.That's so true. Twos and fours get along very well. And why is that? Because twos don't like to be told what to do. Well, fours are not going to tell twos what to do.And if twos try to tell four what's to do, what to do, they'll just ignore them. So it's perfect. It's a good combination.

We. We do. We actually get along very well. We're like the best of friends. So that's good.

That's wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah.

Yeah.

But you deal a lot with people that have blended families. And. Yes, that's. That's so common today. And like I say, I see that all the time in my practice.And it happens during treatment because treatment usually goes for a year or two.And when all of a sudden you're seeing personality changes, then we find out that the parents got remarried and everything changed in the family and they changed their position. And when they get demoted, it does not work out well. No one wants to get demoted.

That's interesting. So if someone is thinking about bringing in another child, say they have. This happens a lot. I get this question a lot.I have a biological child that I've always been called to foster, to adopt. Like, I really want to adopt. You would absolutely suggest that they go for a younger child than their biological child?

Absolutely. But we have to be careful.The child that they're adopting, what was their birth order and what relationship, family relationship, were they in before they got adopted? So you gotta look at that. Are they. Are you demoting them when they come into your house, or are you keeping the same thing?So if they were a number one in their adopted house before, now they come into your house, and now they're a number two, it's not gonna work out real well.

Wow.

Okay, so they would want somebody who was a number two or below. Yes, Ideally, yes. Yeah.

And then there's no friction. And below. That's even better because they've been elevated in birth order to a number two. Aha.

See?

So number three or a number four. I'll throw another, you know, wrench in this thing. What happens with more than four children? Well, it starts all over again.Number five is like a number one, but it's like primary colors and secondary colors. It's the same color, but it's not as intense. So number one wants to tell everybody what to do. Number five might suggest it.You know, a number six is like a number two, but not quite as fixed in place, you know, as stubborn.

Fascinating.

So it's just so. So you can look at numbers beyond number four, and that happens.

Now, what about the way that you. You're brought up, though? Like, it's not just like, for instance, in my family, I always felt like you're saying, oh, as.As the baby, I got all the attention, but I didn't never feel like I got enough attention because they already had their whole life, and they were always doing everything. And they. It even says. I think it says in your book, like, who has the most pictures?I wasn't in any of the pictures because they had already done all the pictures, and, like, they had done that. And then everyone was busy at that point bringing up, like, you know, kids. And then there I am. The baby's like, oh, Rachel's okay. Like, she's fine.She's fine. Like, you know, so how does that. I mean, but you weren't.

You weren't a true four. So you were a four only.And being a four, you were so different from the other children that in some ways, they resented who you were because you were stronger than any of them who, when you decided to be. So you. You didn't know who you were, but you had two different personalities.So sometimes you were the baby, and it's like, well, we don't want to take her with us. She's too little. And other times you said, you're taking me with you because that was your only side. And they said, why is she so.Why is she so, you know, bossy?

My sister used to say I was bossy.

Yeah, right. And so they didn't. They didn't understand you, and you didn't.

Quite understand what was happening to you.

Because you were looked at as two different people. So if it was. You were truly a 4. You would have been the true baby in the family. But you. In some ways, you were stronger than any of them.And the baby that was so confusing for them, it might still be now as adults, they still don't understand you, I hope. This birth order stuff. You need to give them a copy of the book for. For Thanksgiving dinner. And then they say, now we understand you, Rachel.We didn't before, you know, we resented you because you got all the good. You know, you were the only child and all that attention and, you know, and we just. We didn't want any part of you, you know?

God, that's so funny. Yeah, that is. That's really interesting. I'm gonna have to bring that up with them and see what they think.The book is actually, like, mindboggling in its depth. Like, I had no idea what I was in for.And then you start getting into it, and he literally goes through all of the different, like, scenarios that there could be. So it might be worth it. Well worth it to pick up a copy of the book, Life's Fingerprint, just to figure out your. What's going on in your family.And like you said before, it matters what happened in a previous household. Now, what if this child has been passed from household to household? Like that happens sometimes. They've been in three, four different.Five different foster homes before they land where they land.

Sure.

What do you say?

Then in each foster home they went into, they had a new birth order or could have had a new birth order. And sometimes they have to go from foster home to foster home because the court tells them to do that.Sometimes it's because they don't adjust well in that home. And I would say when they don't adjust well, it's because they got demoted in birth order, and that's what happened.So we need to look at that when we're talking about the book. You know, I tried to give all those examples. There's two versions of the book. One is a paperback that you can get on Amazon.The other is the hardcover in color. But at the back of the book are all the questions and answers that give to me at lectures and things. So I put that in there. So it's.It's a very different book than the one that we get on Amazon, and they can get it on our website, which is easy to remember. It's just mybirthorder.com and so. And I will personally autograph it for them and everything.

So, yeah, it's a beautiful book. It's actually like it. It feels nice. It's like, got really nice pages.

Coffee table.

And it is a coffee table book.

Yeah.

Yeah. It would be like a great gift. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Especially for Christmas and Thanksgiving when all the family gets together and everyone will start looking up their birth order.You know, I tell people when you have a family gathering and you figure out everyone's birth order, you take a sticky note and put their birth order on them as a name card. And then you can start relating to everybody in the family by their birth order. And you find out that people don't change.They're exactly the way they were when you were growing up. If you were at the little kids table Thanksgiving, you're going to be back.

There as an adult sitting with the little kids.

Funny.

It doesn't change.

So how do you, how do you deal with it then? Like say you are, you're getting remarried and new kids are coming in, or you're fostering to adopt and a new child is coming in.And it's not ideal, but like, how are there ways that you can like, make it easier or is just understanding it maybe the, the first step?

Yes, that's exactly it. You, you people don't change.But if you understand who you're dealing with, you know, I tell you when in the book I say this is going to unmask everyone in your life. It'll unmask your dry cleaner, your auto mechanic and whatever, because they all have their birth orders.And then you don't, you don't expect from a number three what you would expect from a number one. Okay. And so you treat people uniquely, rather than everybody the same. And you should do that with your children. Every child is unique.And find out their unique characteristics. I tell people a lot of times when you have sports with the kids, especially like two boys, don't have them play the same sport. You don't want that.There's enough competition already between the first two kids, especially boys have, have one play football and the other play baseball, but don't have them play the same sport because, you know, you just don't want to make the situation worse than it already is. So you want to deal with the birth order and it makes your life so easy.When the patients come into my office and I find their birth order, I know exactly how to talk to them because I need cooperation from them to get anything done. So I treat every kid differently. And the parents sometimes say, how do you get them to do that? I said, well, he's a number two.I'M going to tell him every time what I'm going to do. I'm not going to just jump in there and start doing stuff. Whereas the number one. Oh, whatever you do is fine. Doctor. That's right. You know, my.My parents sent me here. It's okay. And number four is, you know, they. They just like to have fun.And, you know, they put different colors on and they dropped their appointment card on the way out of the office.But, you know, you don't try to treat everybody the same, so, you know, it's like a great big family and it makes life so much easier for you, you know.

So to, to recap, the number one is the most sort of thought. They follow directions the most.

Yes.

They're responsible. They follow directions.

All of that. Yes. We have, we have, we have T shirts on our website. And number one, the first T shirt is the only child. It says Superman was an only child.You know, he wanted to save the world. Okay, Here you don't like, but, you know, that was number one. It says, let me tell you what to do. Okay? I'm in charge. Okay. Okay, I'm in charge.That's number one. Number two says, don't tell me what to do. Okay. Number one, don't tell me what to do. Okay.Number three says, I feel your pain because they sense everything around them and everybody. And number four says, I don't want to grow up. Let me be the baby. But, you know, we don't have any T shirts for the double birth orders.These are just for the single birth orders. But you can, you know, you can figure it out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How did you. I just have to ask. How did you get into this as a. An orthodontist? How did that happen?

Well, I found out when I first started practicing that I needed the cooperation from teenagers to get my work done. And if you're going to fight teenagers, you're always going to lose. And my patients are always teenagers.So I was looking for ways to try to understand who I was dealing with. And I tried different things.

And I finally hit on birth order, and I tried it, and it worked part of the time. And I was almost ready to throw.

Out the whole idea.

And I went through all the charts, all the patients, and I write down all the kids in the family and. And their ages.And then I realized two thirds of all my patients had double birth orders because those were the families that had the money in between to afford braces for their kids. I wasn't dealing like with you. I would deal with A four only. Not a four. So you were a very different child than a four or an only.And that's when finally a pediatrician who I was treating in his kids and, and I explained it all to him and he says, I've been using this in my office. He says, you have to write this down. I said, I'm not an author. He says, it doesn't make any difference. You have information that nobody has.And it works. In my pediatric office, he says, you gotta write the book. And so three years later, I finished the book.And it's the only one we know that talks about double birth orders. And it's the Rosetta stone to understanding everybody. Most of the stuff you read, it's too simple and it doesn't work.That's why people say fourth order doesn't work. It's just phony stuff. It's like astrology or something.

Yeah.

Because they're not into it deep enough. Once you get into it, you realize it's not just four birth orders, there's probably about 20.And with all the combinations and once you understand it, you know, you put it together, it's like ingredients. And birth order is like, it's like a radio wave. It's what's going on behind you all the time.

It's.

And making you make decisions. And when you put all the ingredients together, you get the personality.And it, it's the interaction with your other siblings that make you who you are. It's not mom and dad, except if you're an only child. So that's an interesting thought, isn't it?

Really interesting. Talk to me about a deceased child. If there was, for instance, in my mother's house house growing up, their firstborn died as a baby.And so she was the firstborn, but there had been another child before her.

Okay. We call that a phantom child.And if you keep that child alive in the family, meaning you're going to celebrate their birthday, you're going to have, you know, pretending that they're still alive. Well, that really affects that next child that's born because they can never, they can never live up to the. Of this angel. Okay? And, and it doesn't.It really affects them emotionally. Vincent van Gogh had a brother named Vincent van Gogh born exactly for him and died. His mother never let the first Vincent van Gogh die.She celebrated the birthday. She and Vincent van Gogh, the painter had a little screw loose because he could never live up to the. Of the. His older brother who was now dead.So I tell people, yes, you have a child that dies in the family, and that's the end of it. Don't try to keep that child alive. It will affect all the other children and their birth orders.So that's, that's something that you should be careful of.

Interesting. Yeah. And now what about a child who has severe medical needs? Because a lot of these, these children coming from foster care will have that.

Yes. I'll give you an example of the firstborn was. She was fine. And the second born had a medical problem.And a lot of family resources went to that second child. The attention, the money, whatever. And the first child couldn't say anything bad about the second child because, well, that would be terrible.So they fostered this great hatred. And because they wanted to be in charge, they were number one. They wanted to get all the attention, but they couldn't get it.And that really affects that firstborn. When the second born is medically handicapped. Now the reverse is true too. Number one is born with a handicap. Number two is a normal birth.Number two can dethrone number one because number number one is handicapped.And so number two ends up becoming number one and number one becomes number two and is protected somewhat by the number two child who has now taken the role of number one. So dethroning can happen. It can be easy, it can be difficult. But you have to watch that with birth order.

There's a lot of things to think about.

Yeah. Yes.

What about pets? You mentioned pets in, in the book, there's a small section on pets. Can you talk about birth order with pets?

Well, pets seem to take on birth order roles. You, you know, you have your, your, your dog that you've had for years, and then you decide to bring in a puppy.You know, I mean, the, they were getting all the attention before.

Well, what, what's this puppy doing now?

Getting. Or you bring in a cat and the cat decides to be the dominant one and, you know, pushes the dog around.All of a sudden, the cat is number one and the dog is number two. It happens in nature all the time.

Wow, that's interesting.

So it's, it's a survival thing in nature.

Yeah.

Probably in humans, too, but we don't look at it that way.

Right.

Do you have pets?

We had a dog for six, 17 years, Maynard, our beautiful dog. And he passed away two years ago, and we haven't gotten another one yet. We're getting close. I think we're like, ready to bring another one in.My kids miss having a dog. I really miss having a dog. But he was. Talk about firstborn like, he was like our firstborn because we had him for so long before we had kids.

You treated him like an only child?

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

And he was really mad. I mean, talk about being usurped. He was. When Izzy, when our daughter came in, he was just like, what is going on?Like, and then when the second one came in, he was even more like, okay. One was okay, but now there's another one. Like, what? He's happening.

He was being demoted in birth order. He was an only baby, and now you moved him into number three position. So, I mean, people treat their pets like family, so what's the difference?

And we did feel bad, but there was nothing we could do. And we certainly did not give him the attention that we used to give him, because we couldn't. We just didn't have it.

It's all about birth order.

Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. Now, I cannot let you go without asking you a couple of orthodontist questions. Do you mind? Only because we were just recommended.My daughter is. She's turning. They recommended that we go see an orthodontist. Couple questions here.First of all, I've been reading that a lot of orthodontists are, like, over prescribing braces. It's just, like, a thing that everyone does now.It's like, oh, there's not enough room, like, you in your mouth, like, you need braces kind of situation. Is that true, or do you think that's nonsense?

Oh, boy. Now we're.

Or do you not even want to talk? You're like, I didn't come on the show to talk about orthodontist stuff.

The. The. The thing about not having enough room in your mouth.It will be pretty obvious to the mother and the father if the permanent teeth are in or they're not in because there's no room to let them in, or they're overlapped. All the teeth are overlapped. That's pretty obvious.And it's nothing that they're trying to sell you, but it's what you can't see, and that's why they need to have an X ray and things. But your daughter at 10 years old, probably is not ready for any braces unless there's a couple things going on. Now, I'll shift gears for a second.If she has what we call a cross bite, where the bottom teeth fit in front of the upper teeth.

She's got an overbite, actually.

Okay. If she has an overbite, just.

Okay.

Okay. She has a growth issue, and so if that's the case, we would want to try to get the lower jaw to grow forward.And you can do that with an orthopedic appliance before she's through growing. So it's not a whole lot of braces on the teeth, but it's an appliance that helps the lower jaw express itself.And so you might want to start her treatment before all her permanent teeth are in, because after she goes through her menstrual period and growth is gone, then you can't fix it that way. You have to extract teeth to fix it.

Oh, interesting.

Okay, so you want to go to someone that uses orthopedic appliances to help the growth of the lower jaw.

Okay, orthopedic appliances. I'm writing this down because they didn't give us that option at the place we went to. They were just like, oh, yeah, she's going to need braces.She's probably going to be on for two and a half years. They have to be the metal ones because they work the best or something.

And anything that's glued to the tooth, they have them. And they have them ceramic braces, too, that are glued to the teeth too. Then that is true. They work the best.But if they don't use orthopedic appliances. Now, in the past, you remember kids that had head gears. That was how they used to do orthopedics. They would only treat the upper jaw.But now we can treat the lower jaw with orthopedic appliances, too. If you're going to a place that is very efficient, meaning they. They're there for the money.They're not going to be using orthopedic appliances because you need cooperation. That's why I got in a birth order, because I needed cooperation.

From the child, you mean?

Yes. They'll just be extracting teeth to solve the problem.So if they say, well, the only solution here is extracting teeth, and you say, yeah, but her teeth look fine. It's your jaw. That's right. Not right to find another orthodontist. You know several opinions before you make a decision.

Okay, good to know. The thing is with Medicaid, because she gets Medicaid through 21, because she's from foster care, they.We actually just got back the thing that they didn't even approve it because they're saying it's cosmetic and they're not.

Medicaid doesn't approve braces. Ah. So.

So we would have to. Is it cosmetic or is it like.

Well, you can. You can get. You can get orthodontic insurance with dental insurance, but they pay a fixed amount for treatment.They'll pay a thousand dollars, maybe, maybe 1500 at the most. And they spread it out over the two years of treatment, so it might not be worth the premium of buying it.

Okay.

You know, it's just, you know, insurance companies aren't in business to lose money. So.

They'll make their money.

Right. Based on. And you're going to lose every time.

Yeah. They're like the house in Vegas. Yeah.

Yes, that's right.

They always win somehow. They always win. It can look good, but then they always win.

Right. So my advice is get more than one opinion and talk about orthopedic appliances, which means maybe no extractions of teeth, but growth of the jaw.

Yeah.

And she's 10 years old.

Perfect.

Time. Perfect. Got plenty of time. Plenty of time.

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Again, give us your website one more time so the listeners know where to go.

It's easy. It's my birth order dot com, so, you know, simple. And. Yeah, not only can. Not only do you have the.The color book that you have in hardcover, but we also have. I'll hold it up here, the book on a usb so you can stick this in your computer and it's got all the color pictures and things.I mean, I prefer that you get.

Oh, cool.

The. The hardcover book. But if people say, I don't want a book, I want a usb, we have it there.And of course we have the T shirts and other things too on the website. But, you know, they'll get the book. They'll get it autographed by me.And if they tell me their family, I'll even write a little thing about their birth order.

That's so nice. Personalization, we love that. Did you do an audiobook or you haven't done an audiobook for it?

Oh, yes, there's an audiobook as well.

There's an audiobook.

Okay.

I'm an audiobook narrator also, so I always have to ask about the audiobook.

That's it. Everywhere, right?

Dr. Hurst, it's so fun to talk to you. Thank you so much for sharing your insight and for coming on today.

This was great. It's always nice talking to a double birth order.

This has been the Foster to Forever podcast. Happy stories of non traditional families born through Foster to adopt. Produced by Aquarius Rising. Original music composed by Joe Fulginetti.For more information or to stay in touch, visit from foster to forever.com. That's from foster, the number two forever.com and stay connected with us on Instagram @foster2forever podcast.That's foster, the number two forever podcast. We'll see you next time,.

Sam.